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  1. #1
    Space Wolves's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Europe's Secret Nuclear Weapons: What Should NATO Do?

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/2009120...08599194379900

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Is Italy capable of delivering a thermonuclear strike? Could the Belgians and the Dutch drop hydrogen bombs on enemy targets? And what about Germany - a country where fear of atomkraft is so great that the last government opposed all civilian nuclear power? Germany's air force couldn't possibly be training to deliver bombs 13 times more powerful than the one that destroyed Hiroshima, could it?
    It is Europe's dirty secret that the list of nuclear-capable countries extends beyond those - Britain and France - who have built their own weapons. Nuclear bombs are stored on air-force bases in Italy, Belgium, Germany and the Netherlands - and planes from each of those countries are capable of delivering them. The Federation of American Scientists believes that there are some 200 B61 thermonuclear gravity bombs scattered across these four countries. Under a NATO agreement struck during the Cold War, the bombs, which are technically owned by the U.S., can be transferred to the control of a host nation's air force in times of conflict. Twenty years after the fall of the Berlin Wall, Dutch, Belgian, Italian and German pilots remain ready to engage in nuclear war. (See pictures of the worst nuclear disasters of all time.)
    These weapons are more than an anachronism or historical oddity. They are a violation of the spirit of the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT) - the 1968 agreement governing nuclear weapons that acts as one of the linchpins of global security by providing a legal restraint on the nuclear ambitions of rogue states. Because "nuclear burden-sharing," as the dispersion of B61s in Europe is called, was set up before the NPT came into force, it is technically legal. But as signatories to the NPT, the four European countries and the U.S. have pledged "not to receive the transfer ... of nuclear weapons or control over such weapons directly, or indirectly." That, of course, is precisely what the long-standing NATO arrangement entails.
    While burden-sharing was generally tolerated during the Cold War, it has become an irritant at recent NPT review conferences, where the nonaligned countries have used it as an example of the U.S.'s failure to take serious steps toward nuclear disarmament - part of its obligation under the treaty. The issue re-entered the public discourse in Europe last year, when a U.S. Air Force report found that the European air-force bases storing the weapons were failing to meet basic security requirements to safeguard the weapons. These revelations cemented the unpopularity of the agreement. Belgium's Parliament had already unanimously requested that NATO withdraw the weapons, while a 2006 poll found that almost 70% of people in the four countries want the U.S. nukes withdrawn. In October, German Foreign Minister Guido Westerwelle declared that "Germany has to set a good example when it comes to disarmament by getting the atomic weapons stationed in this country removed." Westerwelle added that President Barack Obama's speech in Prague in April, in which the President called for countries to renew the vision of a world free of nuclear weapons, had "opened the door" to a nuclear-weapons-free Europe. (See pictures of Obama's eight months of diplomacy.)
    But the U.S. and NATO military leaderships remain protective of the weapons. As recently as December 2008, the Secretary of Defense Task Force on Nuclear Weapons Management, chaired by former U.S. Secretary of Defense James Schlesinger, said the weapons were an important guarantee of NATO security and also supported nonproliferation efforts by preventing allied states from developing their own weapons programs. The report concluded that the presence of B61s in Europe "remains an essential political and military link between European and North American members of the alliance."
    These justifications infuriated arms-control experts, who pointed out that NATO countries continue to be protected by the hundreds of land- and submarine-based long-range nuclear-tipped missiles. "The nuclear umbrella can be continued by long-range forces just like it was in the Pacific after [nuclear] weapons were withdrawn from South Korea in 1991," says Hans Kristensen of the Federation of American Scientists, who closely monitors nuclear weapons in Europe. As for the concern that allied countries might be driven to develop their own nuclear-weapons programs, Kristensen was scathing in a recent blog post: "How many [European] countries would seriously consider acquiring their own weapons if things changed? Denmark? Iceland? Lithuania? Luxembourg? Portugal? Seriously!" (Read "Reducing Nuclear Weapons: How Much Is Possible?")
    Obama's ongoing "nuclear posture review" and NATO's review of its strategic concept may call for an end to the burden-sharing arrangement. But if Obama fails to address the issue - and if NATO doesn't come to an agreement - countries may choose to take their own steps to get rid of the weapons. In 2001, when the Greek air force ordered a new fighter jet, it chose a model that could not carry the B61, forcing the U.S. to withdraw its weapons there. Germany may soon retire its own Tornado fighter jet, opting instead for the Eurofighter, which can't carry B61s. "NATO countries are currently answering the question backward. We are allowing aircraft selection to determine our posture," says Heather Conley, director of the Europe program at the Center for Strategic and International Studies. Given that Europe's nuclear arsenal is so unpopular, potentially unsafe and a hindrance to global nonproliferation efforts, it's time for it to go.



    Oh?
    Last edited by Space Wolves; December 02, 2009 at 11:16 PM.

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  2. #2
    Sidmen's Avatar Mangod of Earth
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    Default Re: Europe's Secret Nuclear Weapons: What Should NATO Do?

    Yes, and? The US has nuclear weapons stationed all around the globe.

    Its just a happy coincidence that our allies in those countries happen to have planes to carry them if we can't get our own planes there in times of crisis.

    *starts whistling*
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  3. #3
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    Default Re: Europe's Secret Nuclear Weapons: What Should NATO Do?

    this is a sore spot in EU-US relations alright

    perhaps the euros can...'nationalise' them weapons

  4. #4
    s.rwitt's Avatar Shamb Conspiracy Member
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    Default Re: Europe's Secret Nuclear Weapons: What Should NATO Do?

    Yeah, good luck with that.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Europe's Secret Nuclear Weapons: What Should NATO Do?

    Twenty years after the fall of the Berlin Wall, Dutch, Belgian, Italian and German pilots remain ready to engage in nuclear war. (See pictures of the worst nuclear disasters of all time.)
    That's just silly, having a link like that follow a sentence like that. It seriously hampers my ability to take the article seriously.
    As for the concern that allied countries might be driven to develop their own nuclear-weapons programs, Kristensen was scathing in a recent blog post: "How many [European] countries would seriously consider acquiring their own weapons if things changed? Denmark? Iceland? Lithuania? Luxembourg? Portugal? Seriously!"
    Seriously?

    Seriously.
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  6. #6
    Sidmen's Avatar Mangod of Earth
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    Default Re: Europe's Secret Nuclear Weapons: What Should NATO Do?

    this is a sore spot in EU-US relations alright

    perhaps the euros can...'nationalise' them weapons
    And break the NNPT?

    The EU can shove off, if its own members don't want to listen to it than thats its problem. It is entirely possible for France and Britain to replace those nukes - and the US doesn't care enough to leave them there if they're asked to remove them.

    Its telling that Italy, Germany, and Belgium are more comfortable with US weapons than asking their European neighbors for them.
    "For the humble doily is indeed the gateway to ULTIMATE COSMIC POWER!"

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  7. #7
    Erik's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Europe's Secret Nuclear Weapons: What Should NATO Do?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sidmen View Post
    And break the NNPT?

    The EU can shove off, if its own members don't want to listen to it than thats its problem. It is entirely possible for France and Britain to replace those nukes - and the US doesn't care enough to leave them there if they're asked to remove them.

    Its telling that Italy, Germany, and Belgium are more comfortable with US weapons than asking their European neighbors for them.
    You're missing the point.

    Those nukes aren't here for our enjoyment, they are here because America wanted to put them here (close to Moscow).
    Italy, Germany, Belgium and the Netherlands have accepted to accommodate the Americans, to keep them as a friend.

    All 4 of these countries want America to takes those nukes back now, but America refuses.
    We could just dismantle them of course, but then what would America do to us? what sanctions will be placed on those who damage America's property?



  8. #8

    Default Re: Europe's Secret Nuclear Weapons: What Should NATO Do?

    Tabloid garbage, full of weasel words. Read the article properly, it is refering to us weapons stored in these countries.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Europe's Secret Nuclear Weapons: What Should NATO Do?

    I don't see the problem. So some EU-nations has nukes, ok, so what? It's not like it's hard to make your own nukes, its just not necessary when the Americanos were handing them out to you in order to combat the red threat.
    Have you ever seen Dirty Harry Guns and money are best diplomacy
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  10. #10

    Default Re: Europe's Secret Nuclear Weapons: What Should NATO Do?

    nukes are good for health of the world, accept it and lets take the holy land back, oh and albanians are illyrians
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  11. #11
    Ahlerich's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Europe's Secret Nuclear Weapons: What Should NATO Do?

    lol at yahoo. europes dirty secret... what kind of secret is a secret that everybody knows and nobody tries to hide. take your nukes home then.
    Last edited by Ahlerich; December 03, 2009 at 04:18 AM.

  12. #12
    Manco's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Europe's Secret Nuclear Weapons: What Should NATO Do?

    It's so secret that everyone knows exactly at what bases these weapons are stored. Hell, there's demonstrations there every single year.

  13. #13
    Babur's Avatar ز آفتاب درخشان ستاره می
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    Default Re: Europe's Secret Nuclear Weapons: What Should NATO Do?

    Quote Originally Posted by Space Wolves View Post
    http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/2009120...08599194379900

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Is Italy capable of delivering a thermonuclear strike? Could the Belgians and the Dutch drop hydrogen bombs on enemy targets? And what about Germany - a country where fear of atomkraft is so great that the last government opposed all civilian nuclear power? Germany's air force couldn't possibly be training to deliver bombs 13 times more powerful than the one that destroyed Hiroshima, could it?
    It is Europe's dirty secret that the list of nuclear-capable countries extends beyond those - Britain and France - who have built their own weapons. Nuclear bombs are stored on air-force bases in Italy, Belgium, Germany and the Netherlands - and planes from each of those countries are capable of delivering them. The Federation of American Scientists believes that there are some 200 B61 thermonuclear gravity bombs scattered across these four countries. Under a NATO agreement struck during the Cold War, the bombs, which are technically owned by the U.S., can be transferred to the control of a host nation's air force in times of conflict. Twenty years after the fall of the Berlin Wall, Dutch, Belgian, Italian and German pilots remain ready to engage in nuclear war. (See pictures of the worst nuclear disasters of all time.)
    These weapons are more than an anachronism or historical oddity. They are a violation of the spirit of the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT) - the 1968 agreement governing nuclear weapons that acts as one of the linchpins of global security by providing a legal restraint on the nuclear ambitions of rogue states. Because "nuclear burden-sharing," as the dispersion of B61s in Europe is called, was set up before the NPT came into force, it is technically legal. But as signatories to the NPT, the four European countries and the U.S. have pledged "not to receive the transfer ... of nuclear weapons or control over such weapons directly, or indirectly." That, of course, is precisely what the long-standing NATO arrangement entails.
    While burden-sharing was generally tolerated during the Cold War, it has become an irritant at recent NPT review conferences, where the nonaligned countries have used it as an example of the U.S.'s failure to take serious steps toward nuclear disarmament - part of its obligation under the treaty. The issue re-entered the public discourse in Europe last year, when a U.S. Air Force report found that the European air-force bases storing the weapons were failing to meet basic security requirements to safeguard the weapons. These revelations cemented the unpopularity of the agreement. Belgium's Parliament had already unanimously requested that NATO withdraw the weapons, while a 2006 poll found that almost 70% of people in the four countries want the U.S. nukes withdrawn. In October, German Foreign Minister Guido Westerwelle declared that "Germany has to set a good example when it comes to disarmament by getting the atomic weapons stationed in this country removed." Westerwelle added that President Barack Obama's speech in Prague in April, in which the President called for countries to renew the vision of a world free of nuclear weapons, had "opened the door" to a nuclear-weapons-free Europe. (See pictures of Obama's eight months of diplomacy.)
    But the U.S. and NATO military leaderships remain protective of the weapons. As recently as December 2008, the Secretary of Defense Task Force on Nuclear Weapons Management, chaired by former U.S. Secretary of Defense James Schlesinger, said the weapons were an important guarantee of NATO security and also supported nonproliferation efforts by preventing allied states from developing their own weapons programs. The report concluded that the presence of B61s in Europe "remains an essential political and military link between European and North American members of the alliance."
    These justifications infuriated arms-control experts, who pointed out that NATO countries continue to be protected by the hundreds of land- and submarine-based long-range nuclear-tipped missiles. "The nuclear umbrella can be continued by long-range forces just like it was in the Pacific after [nuclear] weapons were withdrawn from South Korea in 1991," says Hans Kristensen of the Federation of American Scientists, who closely monitors nuclear weapons in Europe. As for the concern that allied countries might be driven to develop their own nuclear-weapons programs, Kristensen was scathing in a recent blog post: "How many [European] countries would seriously consider acquiring their own weapons if things changed? Denmark? Iceland? Lithuania? Luxembourg? Portugal? Seriously!" (Read "Reducing Nuclear Weapons: How Much Is Possible?")
    Obama's ongoing "nuclear posture review" and NATO's review of its strategic concept may call for an end to the burden-sharing arrangement. But if Obama fails to address the issue - and if NATO doesn't come to an agreement - countries may choose to take their own steps to get rid of the weapons. In 2001, when the Greek air force ordered a new fighter jet, it chose a model that could not carry the B61, forcing the U.S. to withdraw its weapons there. Germany may soon retire its own Tornado fighter jet, opting instead for the Eurofighter, which can't carry B61s. "NATO countries are currently answering the question backward. We are allowing aircraft selection to determine our posture," says Heather Conley, director of the Europe program at the Center for Strategic and International Studies. Given that Europe's nuclear arsenal is so unpopular, potentially unsafe and a hindrance to global nonproliferation efforts, it's time for it to go.



    Oh?
    so will these nukes be removed?
    Last edited by Babur; December 03, 2009 at 08:17 AM.
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  14. #14
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    Default Re: Europe's Secret Nuclear Weapons: What Should NATO Do?

    Greece used to operate American nukes and our A-7 pilots were trained to deploy them, but we have stopped doing so now and gave them back to America.

  15. #15
    Erik's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Europe's Secret Nuclear Weapons: What Should NATO Do?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stavroforos View Post
    Greece used to operate American nukes and our A-7 pilots were trained to deploy them, but we have stopped doing so now and gave them back to America.
    When was that?

    I know Turkey used to house American nukes too, until the Cuban/Turkish missile crisis.
    Given the situation, I think it makes sense when neither country has nuclear weapons.



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    Default Re: Europe's Secret Nuclear Weapons: What Should NATO Do?

    Quote Originally Posted by Erik View Post
    When was that?

    I know Turkey used to house American nukes too, until the Cuban/Turkish missile crisis.
    Given the situation, I think it makes sense when neither country has nuclear weapons.
    Until 2001.

  17. #17
    Erik's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Europe's Secret Nuclear Weapons: What Should NATO Do?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stavroforos View Post
    Until 2001.
    And Turkey was fine with that?



  18. #18
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    Default Re: Europe's Secret Nuclear Weapons: What Should NATO Do?

    Turkey is still hosting US nuclear weapons. JFK gave up nuclear missiles in Turkey with the Cuban Missile Crisis, but the Turks still retained free-falling nukes.

  19. #19
    s.rwitt's Avatar Shamb Conspiracy Member
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    Default Re: Europe's Secret Nuclear Weapons: What Should NATO Do?

    Those nukes aren't here for our enjoyment, they are here because America wanted to put them here (close to Moscow).
    Italy, Germany, Belgium and the Netherlands have accepted to accommodate the Americans, to keep them as a friend.
    Those nukes are also what kept the USSR out of Western Europe Erik.

    Now, how many times have the governments of Italy, Germany, Belgium, or the Netherlands formally asked the US government to leave?

  20. #20
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    Default Re: Europe's Secret Nuclear Weapons: What Should NATO Do?

    Quote Originally Posted by s.rwitt View Post
    Those nukes are also what kept the USSR out of Western Europe Erik.
    No, don't you know anything? The USA had nothing to do with the fall of the USSR. It imploded all by itself and nothing America did by fighting it for 50 years or so made any difference at all. Also, the USSR voluntarily kept out of Western Europe, and the fact there were hundreds of thousands of troops from NATO there had no bearing on their decision.

    I'm glad we could clear that up. USSR Imploded automatically for no reason. USA always bad. Remember?

    Also just as an aside, the Third Reich also imploded. The US had nothing to do with it.

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