Same-Sex Marriage Bill Voted Down in NY State Senate

[Icefrisco]

Link: CNN

The New York state Senate on Wednesday killed a bill that would have legalized same-sex marriage in the state, voting 38-24 against a measure that had the support of the state Assembly and Gov. David Paterson.

Supporters predicted a close vote going into the day's debate and said they would bring the measure back for "as many do-overs as is necessary to get us home," as Majority Leader Pedro Espada put it before the vote.

"There's never a good time for civil rights. There's never, ever, ever, ever a good time for civil rights. I know. I get that," said Sen. Tom Duane, a Manhattan Democrat who was the chamber's first openly gay member. "But the paradox is, it's always the time to be on the right side of history."

Only one senator spoke against the bill during Wednesday's debate. Sen. Ruben Diaz argued that the issue should be put to a statewide referendum and pointed out that 31 states have banned same-sex marriages in statewide votes.

Diaz, a Democrat and a Pentecostal minister from the Bronx, said many New York religious leaders opposed the bill and called on Republicans to join him in defending "traditional values."
"If we take it to the people, the people oppose it," he said.

But a Marist College poll released Wednesday found that 51 percent of New Yorkers questioned favored legalizing same-sex marriage, with 42 percent opposed. A June poll by Qunnipiac University poll reported a similar spread of 51 percent to 41 percent.

And Sen. Eric Adams, a Brooklyn Democrat, said that most of the 31 states Diaz cited as voting against same-sex marriage "at one time or another sold blacks into slavery."

"Because the majority is in one place does not mean they're in the right place," he said. "We're in the position right now where we have to lead the country to the right place."

Passage would have made New York the sixth U.S. state to legalize same-sex marriage and only the second, along with New Hampshire, to do so without a court's prodding.

Connecticut, Vermont, Massachusetts and Iowa also have legalized marriages between gay couples, but federal law bars recognition of those unions across state lines.

I'm surprised that the vote failed. New Yorkers are clearly for gay marriage so I don't understand why the state senators are so afraid of voting for it.

[♔Jean-Luc Picard♔]

The only way I'd ever see something like gay marriage passed is if it passed through plebiscite. Without that, the result would never be accepted. People thought it would pass in California and it got shot down there. I see no reason that New York will realistically be any different.

[chilon]

The only way I'd ever see something like gay marriage passed is if it passed through plebiscite. Without that, the result would never be accepted. People thought it would pass in California and it got shot down there. I see no reason that New York will realistically be any different.

I would say that is because the perception of California the rest of the USA holds, is not and has never really been what the real California is. Some things from California to remember:


The Zoot Suit Racial riots of 1940s illustrate the California's history of racial tension.

The New Right American Conservative movement's soul, Ronald Reagan was tremendously important to California for decades and the New Right was always strong in California.

Demographically during the years of the Cold War, California was the number one State recipient of Defense department research grants with brought in a huge number of workers in the defense contracting industry not known to be a collection of drag queens looking to get married.

More relevant to the gay marriage:
The murder of the nation's first openly gay political figure, San Francisco Supervisor Harvey Milk by Dan White which led to both the gay community mobilizing en masse for the first time really and the SFPD responding by the attacks on the Castro district.

While Los Angeles and San Francisco have been "gay meccas" since World War II, the rest of California has never been like what is always assumed.

[danzig]

Link: CNN



I'm surprised that the vote failed. New Yorkers are clearly for gay marriage so I don't understand why the state senators are so afraid of voting for it.

Because its not that big of a margin that supports it, latest Quinniplac poll showed it at 51/43% in support but yet just 5 months ago showed it even plus there is one big factor. Black voters in NY are big time against it, no idea why but anywhere from 55-65% of blacks oppose it so senators in heavily populated black areas are not going to vote that way.

Whites favor, blacks oppose and hispanics are split.

[Jabberwock]

Because its not that big of a margin that supports it, latest Quinniplac poll showed it at 51/43% in support but yet just 5 months ago showed it even plus there is one big factor. Black voters in NY are big time against it, no idea why but anywhere from 55-65% of blacks oppose it so senators in heavily populated black areas are not going to vote that way.

Whites favor, blacks oppose and hispanics are split.

One word: Religion. As I was telling Icefrisco in another thread, the majority of blacks in America are highly religious. Too religious, but not to the level of evangelicals. A lot of blacks in America (I would say a little bit above 50%) are quite conservative or center-right but only bother to show it when something absolutely contradicts their personal beliefs (e.g. gay marriage). The black community is very weird as it's made up of several different communities in itself, politically-speaking.

[Admiral Piett]

It really wouldn't be difficult to legalize gay marriage if some Congressman would just get his head out of his ass. All he/she has to do is add an article into the Civil Rights Act just explaining the constitutional right of all citizens to enter marriage or union. That's all it'd have to say, and all state-level bans on gay marriage would be immediately rendered null and void.

[Stavroforos]

The problem is New York state, which is comprised mainly of backwards hicks, not New York city.

[danzig]

The problem is New York state, which is comprised mainly of backwards hicks, not New York city.

Oh please as someone living in NYC Id say it is safe to say the moron to people capable of tying their own shoes ratio is much higher in the city then it is upstate and as I pointed out this is more of a black/hispanic issue then it is among whites (a racist term used to dismiss whites which is what I assume you mean here) where 65% of them support gay marriage.

[Erik]

Oh please as someone living in NYC Id say it is safe to say the moron to people capable of tying their own shoes ratio is much higher in the city then it is upstate

I don't think being a "backwards hick" has anything to do with intelligence.

Just being old-fashioned and raised in a rural area should be enough.

Really, the only way gay marriage will ever pass, anywhere, is if it goes to the Supreme Court and becomes a civil rights issue. Otherwise, it really doesn't matter if a state passes it or not. CA has shown that it'll just remain until enough money is thrown at it by the opposition to remove it.

Maybe not today, but maybe in 20-30 years?

30 years ago, the concept of same-sex marriage was unheard of.
60 years ago, homosexuality was still illegal in some Western countries.

I would be surprised if the majority of people would still hold these backwards view in 30 years time.

[Monarchist]

Maybe not today, but maybe in 20-30 years?

30 years ago, the concept of same-sex marriage was unheard of.
60 years ago, homosexuality was still illegal in some Western countries.

I would be surprised if the majority of people would still hold these backwards view in 30 years time.

Ahh, the good old days! How I miss them so (despite not being alive at the time).

I will gladly be of that wretched, evil, hated, and spit-upon minority come thirty years.

[Erik]

I will gladly be of that wretched, evil, hated, and spit-upon minority come thirty years.

Nah, I'm sure you will be happily gay-married yourself by then.

All people who so strongly oppose homosexuality and gay marriage are just struggling with their own sexuality.
It's normal.

It's basically a more vocal minority of people primarily found in the major cities (New York, LA/San Fran/Sacramento/San Diego) acting with a swagger of speaking for the entire state.

Can you blame them?

[danzig]

I don't think being a "backwards hick" has anything to do with intelligence.

Just being old-fashioned and raised in a rural area should be enough.

Usually goes hand in hand when users over here since it implies ignorance, backwards thinking etc but as I said its moot since the issue is more how gay marriage is seen among blacks/hispanics...aka CITY dwellers not rural then it is among whites (ie upstaters) who support it at 60+% margin.

Id also argue while I support gay marriage I dont believe opposition to gay marriage is based on backwards thinking, it is simply a moral view point. Yes there are idiots about it but from my experience some people just find it wrong, is it wrong that they believe its wrong? Dunno not my place to say anymore then it would be to pass judgment on gays. I just know I personally believe if two consenting adults are happy then hats off to them for finding happiness and cherish it.

I didn't mean whites, since that's not what I use the term hick for. I simply mean people who don't live in the City.

Or, better described:

That's fine then for clarifying, usually hicks=whites when used but as I said above the issue has alot to do with minority voters and hence city dwellers...I mean look at the vote it wasnt even close so you cant just chalk it up as oh it was upstaters.

[Erik]

Usually goes hand in hand when users over here since it implies ignorance, backwards thinking etc

Ignorance and backward thinking have nothing to do with intelligence either.

Do I think most people in rural areas are backward? Yes
Do I think they are Ignorant? Many, yes.
Do I think they have a lower IQ? No.

Yes there are idiots about it but from my experience some people just find it wrong, is it wrong that they believe its wrong?

I can confidently say it is wrong, yes.
Just like opposition to mixed race marriages was wrong
And prosecution of homosexuals was wrong.
And opposition to women's suffrage was wrong.

My point is: the World is progressing in a clear direction:
-First homosexuals were prosecuted
-Then they were tolerated
-Now they start to get equal rights.

And the same applies to the treatment of minorities in general.
The end goal is clear: everybody will be treated as equals.
Anyone opposing the progression towards this end goal is, quite frankly, backward.

You see: It's not a moral dilemma (like abortion, for example), where there are good and bad sides to both positions.
There are no victims in same-sex marriages, only victims when you deny it.
It's moral progression, or the lack of it.

[Stavroforos]

Oh please as someone living in NYC Id say it is safe to say the moron to people capable of tying their own shoes ratio is much higher in the city then it is upstate and as I pointed out this is more of a black/hispanic issue then it is among whites (a racist term used to dismiss whites which is what I assume you mean here) where 65% of them support gay marriage.

I didn't mean whites, since that's not what I use the term hick for. I simply mean people who don't live in the City.

Or, better described:

[Icefrisco]

I didn't mean whites, since that's not what I use the term hick for. I simply mean people who don't live in the City.

Or, better described:

In discussing politics in most states, you would be right. However, New York politics are far more ethnically based than most states. Regardless of where each ethnic group lives, New York Irish and Jews tend to be for gay marriage and Italians and Blacks tend to be against it. Germans are largely divided (Idk why, its probably a mix of religious and geographic reasons). You might be surprised, but Senator Gillibrand (she is from an Irish area) is strongly for gay marriage despite being from upstate. Not all upstate people are socially conservative hicks.

Btw, thats a great clip.

[Ramashan]

The problem is New York state, which is comprised mainly of backwards hicks, not New York city.

This is really the answer, New York state is far larger than NY city which gets most of the press. Just like CA is made up of more than just LA and San Fran.

Really, the only way gay marriage will ever pass, anywhere, is if it goes to the Supreme Court and becomes a civil rights issue. Otherwise, it really doesn't matter if a state passes it or not. CA has shown that it'll just remain until enough money is thrown at it by the opposition to remove it.

[Monarchist]

I love being called a hick by people who've never met me just for being against gay marriage. It is a glorious day that the sensible senators have given us. Let's celebrate with some sort of carbonated beverage, then call the police and say that a few local gay bars are selling drugs. That should remind everyone what it's all about!

For once, I have to say: bravo New York state!

[Ahiga]

I'm surprised that the vote failed. New Yorkers are clearly for gay marriage so I don't understand why the state senators are so afraid of voting for it.

I'm starting to think the whole affair with New Yorkers & Californians being seen and casting themselves as ultra-liberal, progressive thoughtful compassionate unbigoted individuals is a crock of shi'ite or a crock of Sunni, maybe sufi or druze.

It's basically a more vocal minority of people primarily found in the major cities (New York, LA/San Fran/Sacramento/San Diego) acting with a swagger of speaking for the entire state.

[Ó Cathasaigh]

All people who so strongly oppose homosexuality and gay marriage are just struggling with their own sexuality.
It's normal.

and everyone else has accepted their own homosexuality.

I didn't mean whites, since that's not what I use the term hick for. I simply mean people who don't live in the City.

So, people who don't live in the city are...morons.

There are toothless hillbillies from the mountains who have never seen a car with more sense.

[Ramashan]

The bottom line is, allowing one group of people to do something while not allowing another to have the same rights is a form of bigotry and unequality no matter how you slice it. If marriage were solely within the domain of the church, that's one thing. But since its a government license you get it means that the state (whether local or federal) are picking and choosing who gets what rights.

By denying the the homosexual the same marriage right your not protecting anyone, not stopping some crime, nor bettering anyone's lives, as a matter of fact your doing the opposite. If the gov took away the tax rights and personal property rights that comes with marriage and made it truly a religious right, then sure, no problem. But since there are so many legal rights that come with marriage, your denying citizens equal rights to them, bottom line.

We can only hope that things will change in 30 years.