Justification of life

[Djûn]

Good day, EMM.

I've recently found myself wondering quite a fair bit about the ever-elusive 'meaning of life' almost to the extent of cartesian doubt itself, so much so that it has indeed been hampering my studies. I just wonder how other people cope with this issue.

Prima facie, as an atheist, one should find trouble with finding meaning at all except for simply to exist, or to perhaps to help mankind. If the former is true, then one's actions must be ultimately meaningless. If the latter is true, then does one not struggle to justify holding personal wealth at all, and does it not equally apply to all of mankind such that altruism should be upheld as if it were a dogma in its own right?

Or is the goal more materialistic in nature? If this is the case, then is there something to material goods which is not ultimately empty in essence, something permanent and unchanging?

Then again, as a theist, or one who is religious, then how does one justify living life in a manner which is not entirely devoted to that set of doctrines and dogmas?

I apologise for the liberal scattering of questions, but in attempting to answer these I've only managed to discover more questions.

[Katsumoto]

I ask myself this question regularly, but at the end of the day, life is what you make of it. Maybe there is a purpose to it, maybe there are things we were born to do, but I doubt we are actually ever going to know what, so you just have to get on with it and make the most of it. You only live once and all that.

[TWoxy]

I ask myself this question regularly, but at the end of the day, life is what you make of it. Maybe there is a purpose to it, maybe there are things we were born to do, but I doubt we are actually ever going to know what, so you just have to get on with it and make the most of it. You only live once and all that.

+1, pretty much my thoughts word for word.

[Djûn]

But that's the problem, how can one make the most of life if one does not know how?

[Katsumoto]

That's down to you to find out:

Your life is what your thoughts make it.
-Marcus Aurelius

[Djûn]

With all due respects to the emperor, this is exactly the problem. My thoughts are that there appears to be no point which is not ultimately hollow as an non-religious person, and as a religious person it would seem to be dedicating oneself solely and utterly to that set of doctrines. Neither of these outcomes seem satisfying to me, hence the purpose of this thread: What do people use to justify their lives?

[Yosemite]

What do people use to justify their lives?

my parents decided to have me

[Djûn]

my parents decided to have me

I see. Is it the approval of your parents' that you live for, then, or is this simply a clever way of expressing an existentialist mindset.

Well I've heard the saying that you haven't lived until you've found something worth dying for, so maybe if you found something worth dying for, it would fulfill your need

I have heard this, too. However, it still does not answer 'what is worth dying for'!

[Phier]

With all due respects to the emperor, this is exactly the problem. My thoughts are that there appears to be no point which is not ultimately hollow as an non-religious person, and as a religious person it would seem to be dedicating oneself solely and utterly to that set of doctrines. Neither of these outcomes seem satisfying to me, hence the purpose of this thread: What do people use to justify their lives?

Do you have something better to do?

[Katsumoto]

Well I've heard the saying that you haven't lived until you've found something worth dying for, so maybe if you found something worth dying for, it would fulfill your need

Also, some people justfiy life by happiness, so as long as you are happy life is worth living. But I know what you're after, you're after a deeper meaning and purpose, which is probably impossible to offer you

[Katsumoto]

But that's again mostly down to you, nobody can tell you what you would die for It could be person, an idea, whatever, something that you love with a passion that you would sacrifice your life for.

My personal opinion is that it's down to the individual what to make of his life and purpose. Read books from various philosophers, maybe religious texts, and make your own mind up.

[Djûn]

I realise that it's personal. This is why I made the thread - I would like to know what people use as their justifications of life.

[The spartan]

I think the meaning of life is an attempt of the individual to make them seem important somehow beyond their own realm. My personal view of life is: "it exists because it can and will".

[Djûn]

I think the meaning of life is an attempt of the individual to make them seem important somehow beyond their own realm. My personal view of life is: "it exists because it can and will".

Then what compels you to act? If the purpose of life is simply that one can exist and one will exist, then what compels you to do anything more than exist? Why does one pursure romance, or a high-paying career, or comply with social commitments?

The idea that one should only exist means that anything beyond keeping oneself alive is pointless.

The only meaning of YOUR life is that which YOU give to it. Never forget the ultimate importance of the SELF to the SELF.

Exactly! But what do you do to give meaning to your life? What is your reasoning behind your actions based on this meaning?

What is the ultimate importance of the self?

I'm sorry for asking all these questions, particularly given their apparently unanswerable nature, but it is this quality which has literally been driving me mad.

[Justice and Mercy]

Exactly! But what do you do to give meaning to your life?

Me?

I suppose my "meaning" is to do everything I can to be the kind of person I'd like to be. It's nothing deep, nothing cosmic. It's simple. Chances are, it'll change.

If you feel the need for meaning, make it. There's no cosmic secret to discover, IMO.

[The spartan]

Then what compels you to act? If the purpose of life is simply that one can exist and one will exist, then what compels you to do anything more than exist? Why does one pursure romance, or a high-paying career, or comply with social commitments?

The idea that one should only exist means that anything beyond keeping oneself alive is pointless.

Not at all. My body tells me to do things and I do. I never said I wasn't driven, I said there is no need to have a higher purpose than to be driven. That isn't to say that you can make up your own goals and higher purposes, but they aren't required.

[Justice and Mercy]

The only meaning of YOUR life is that which YOU give to it. Never forget the ultimate importance of the SELF to the SELF.

[Djûn]

See, now that is an approach I tried as well. I thought that to myself in two manners. Firstly, I asked myself what achievements I wished to strive for. I wanted to be a lawyer, a QC, a judge. I wanted to marry my girlfriend and live together. But this all seems so superficial. There is no particular achievement in them aside from the achievement itself. The material gains one might find from these seem inherently hollow, ever changing and impermanent; although they bring happiness for a period, eventually they will cease to do so. Upon become a judge, what then motivates me - to keep on being a judge? If my ultimate goal is always mutating and impermanent, then what separates it from the similar nature in which I regard material things?

Secondly, I looked towards characteristics and personality. I wanted to be kind to people; to be generous - in other words to lead an Altruistic life. I wanted to be intelligent and wise. These, I thought, would lead to happiness. However, altruism waned on me as well in the idea of motivation. The concept itself is meant to be a selfless act, yet if it is done with the intention to fulfil one's life, then it is no longer selfless. The only manner in which one could call it a selfless act was if emotion itself were eliminated - an act which is, at the very least, a monumental if not insurmountable challenge. Even then, if the act of Altruism is not meant to be a selfless one, then it still stems from the provision of material goods to another, and surely this means that one is simply deriving one's happiness from the material goods once more! In seeking to gain more and more knowledge then, as my next goal, it would seem that happiness might derive from that. But learning of more knowledge only opens doors towards further and further knowledge and even moreso the realisation that knowledge itself might be lacking. If one finds the learning of information to be so unsatisfactory, then one cannot rely on it as a source of happiness.

[Justice and Mercy]

But this all seems so superficial.

Why? It's your life, it's all you have. Think of the life you'd like to live, and try your best to live it.

The material gains one might find from these seem inherently hollow, ever changing and impermanent; although they bring happiness for a period, eventually they will cease to do so.

So? They'll keep you happy through your life, to an extent, as will be with people you enjoy being with.

Upon become a judge, what then motivates me - to keep on being a judge?

I dunno, why do you want to be a judge? Why does that lifestyle sound appealing to you?

I wanted to be kind to people; to be generous - in other words to lead an Altruistic life.

It's nice to say, but truly leading an altruistic life would be pretty miserable IMO. I find myself happier when I strive for what I want, not what others want from me.

Do you know why you want to be altruistic? Is it just because other people tell you that's the best kind of person to be?

These, I thought, would lead to happiness.

Well, is that it? Do you want to be happy?

The concept itself is meant to be a selfless act, yet if it is done with the intention to fulfil one's life, then it is no longer selfless.

Right. Selflessness is evil, IMO. Death-Worship. Destruction of the self. Embrace the self, because it's all you truly have.


All I can really do is ask questions. I don't know you, nor do I know any great secret of life. I don't think there are any, I think life is simpler than people make it out to be.

[Djûn]

Why? It's your life, it's all you have. Think of the life you'd like to live, and try your best to live it.

But what if this life isn't all I've got? One cannot be sure of such things.

So? They'll keep you happy through your life, to an extent, as will be with people you enjoy being with.

Because deriving pleasure from things which are fleeting does not then make me happy.

It's nice to say, but truly leading an altruistic life would be pretty miserable IMO. I find myself happier when I strive for what I want, not what others want from me.

Do you know why you want to be altruistic? Is it just because other people tell you that's the best kind of person to be?

If what I want is happiness, and I derive happiness from altruistic acts, then it follows that doing such acts would make me happy. But as I discovered above, they too seem fleeting and ultimately unsatisfying.

Well, is that it? Do you want to be happy?

I can only conclude from my thinking that happiness must be the ultimate goal, whether it be in this life or an afterlife. It seems to be that which is always in mind but sadly so out of reach. The consumption of impermanent pleasures only seems to lead to a greater displeasure with the realisation of their exhaustion.

Right. Selflessness is evil, IMO. Death-Worship. Destruction of the self. Embrace the self, because it's all you truly have.

The self is all of which I can be certain I have, but this certainty does not mean that selfishness is the way to happiness, particularly with regards to the ideas of an afterlife.

All I can really do is ask questions. I don't know you, nor do I know any great secret of life. I don't think there are any, I think life is simpler than people make it out to be.

I really hope it is simpler than I think, it would save a lot of time and stress.