Proof Over Belief?

[Shams al-Ma'rifa]

I've been reading a lot of post lately condemning people for having beliefs. I just want to show you all that belief is not always wrong and that everyone accepts "beliefs" as "facts" in one instance or another.

For example, if I were to ask you if your mother has ever engaged in prostitution at any time in the past or present, you would probably answer no. (Unless your mom really was a prostitute, otherwise don't give me the political correct answer of "I don't know" because most of you would take this simple belief as fact).

If I were to proceed and ask you to prove your belief, you probably couldn't... There is no way to prove for certain that your mother is, was, or never engaged in prostitution. However, most of us take this belief as fact because we love our mothers and know she would never engage in such acts.

In this situation, belief triumphs over proof and with good reason. If evidence magically appeared showing your mother never engaged in prostitution, it really wouldn't be much of a surprise seeing how you "know" this already.

I am alluding of course to the endless God debates here at the Ethos. There are many atheists here who would condemn believers for accepting god without proof. However, as I have already showed you in the above example, the matter of God's existence isn't even a question to most believers. You cannot use such analogies as comparing our views to a belief in bigfoot, bigfoot may or may not exist but I "know" god exists.

[Dr Zoidberg]

I've no issue with people believing in God, Allah, Buddha, etc. Its when they proceed to tell me that I am wrong for not believing the same thing as them, and try to force their beliefs upon me; that's when I start to get annoyed.

Additionally, belief in a deity, is often used as a 'catch-all' counter argument in many debates - as we've all seen on this forum. "God says so" is not (in my opinion) a valid argument when discussing a range of subjects; be it from same-sex marriage to Third-World aid policy.

I can understand the frustration that many believers have towards those who could be called 'aggressive atheists', who are obviously trolling for a fight, in some misguided attempt to appear intellectually superior. However, I would like to think that the vast majority of non-believers (such as myself) are quite happy to let believers be, as long as your willing to let us have our beliefs and stop trying to preach to us, convert us, etc.

[Shams al-Ma'rifa]

belief in a deity, is often used as a 'catch-all' counter argument in many debates - as we've all seen on this forum. "God says so" is not (in my opinion) a valid argument when discussing a range of subjects; be it from same-sex marriage to Third-World aid policy.

Flashback to when you were a kid and those times you were out with your parents. They tell will always tell you to stay close and mention other ridiculous rules about manners and such. At the time you probably wondered why your parents have to be such a nag about it, you see no logical reason why they need to enforce such things. As you got older, you'll start seeing why more and more of those rules are enforced. Little kids get lost easily, you need to practice good manners so you don't offend people... However back then you probably thought it was logical, I mean after all there is no way you can prove your kids will be lost if they don't stick close to their parents. That's a good analogy I think...

I never use God as tool for secular arguments anyways... However whenver I try to get a secular argument across, people will always demand more evidence, it's pride more than anything. You can't prove everything, sometimes you'll have to make do with induction, intuition, and beliefs. Most of the time people on the other side of the argument don't listen though, they're just trying to win...

I can understand the frustration that many believers have towards those who could be called 'aggressive atheists', who are obviously trolling for a fight, in some misguided attempt to appear intellectually superior. However, I would like to think that the vast majority of non-believers (such as myself) are quite happy to let believers be, as long as your willing to let us have our beliefs and stop trying to preach to us, convert us, etc.

I never see these apparent missionaries on TWC, maybe it's just you then

[Dr Zoidberg]

Flashback to when you were a kid and those times you were out with your parents. They tell will always tell you to stay close and mention other ridiculous rules about manners and such. At the time you probably wondered why your parents have to be such a nag about it, you see no logical reason why they need to enforce such things. As you got older, you'll start seeing why more and more of those rules are enforced. Little kids get lost easily, you need to practice good manners so you don't offend people... However back then you probably thought it was logical, I mean after all there is no way you can prove your kids will be lost if they don't stick close to their parents. That's a good analogy I think...

Sorry, I'm not following, perhaps its because its 23:30 here at the moment. How is the above an analogy to using God as a 'catch-all' counter argument?

[Shams al-Ma'rifa]

Sorry, I'm not following, perhaps its because its 23:30 here at the moment. How is the above an analogy to using God as a 'catch-all' counter argument?

Alright I'll let you catch your sleep then...

[Dr Zoidberg]

Alright I'll let you catch your sleep then...

Im serious though. If you can explain it another way, I'll respond in the morning. Cheers.

[Monarchist]

The only problem, Dr. Zoidberg, is that the very central focus of religion is proselytizing to non-believers. You'll just have to deal with it, I suppose, because that's who we are. If religious people don't proselytize, their faith slowly withers into nothingness. We can't just stop asking you to believe in Jesus, Allah, etc., because our beliefs are at the core of our entire being.

As for the O.P., most theistic people tend to see God as beyond proof. God is simply "I am that am", or "I am that is", "I was that was", or "I will be what will be". There is no explanation which is un-mysterious.

[Mythos]

The only problem, Dr. Zoidberg, is that the very central focus of religion is proselytizing to non-believers. You'll just have to deal with it, I suppose, because that's who we are. If religious people don't proselytize, their faith slowly withers into nothingness. We can't just stop asking you to believe in Jesus, Allah, etc., because our beliefs are at the core of our entire being.

As for the O.P., most theistic people tend to see God as beyond proof. God is simply "I am that am", or "I am that is", "I was that was", or "I will be what will be". There is no explanation which is un-mysterious.

Then you can't stop asking us to stop exposing the fraud religion is. Or that we demand proof for your claims.

Besides, whether a god exists or not, has no bearing on human constructs. There is no way the creator of the universe created those bronze age, barbaric, misogynic and hateful religions. Only men can do that.

[Playfishpaste]

I wouldn't answer no, I would say "I don't know". If you asked if she'd ever murdered anyone, I would also say "I don't know".

60 years is a long time, and people do stupid things, and at times need to do them to survive. At the same time, it would be extremely insulting to my mother for me to claim that I know such things about her with incredible certainty, she would berate me for being so arrogant.

Now believing she didn't is not the same as saying "she didn't."

Either way, religion is not whether or not your mother is a prostitute, nor is whether or not there's a rabbit behind your TV. Those facts don't matter, you can accept them at face value. Whether or not a religion is true determines the course of your entire life, this makes it extremely important for you to get all of the evidence you can in order to be convinced. If I told you "Anybody who doesn't perform fellatio on a reptile and sell all their possessions within the next 40 days WILL die of cancer." wouldn't you want extremely good evidence to believe this before you did it?

[Shams al-Ma'rifa]

I wouldn't answer no, I would say "I don't know". If you asked if she'd ever murdered anyone, I would also say "I don't know".

You know politically correct is code for lie right...

Either way, religion is not whether or not your mother is a prostitute, nor is whether or not there's a rabbit behind your TV. Those facts don't matter, you can accept them at face value.

I would think that it would be a pretty big deal...

Whether or not a religion is true determines the course of your entire life, this makes it extremely important for you to get all of the evidence you can in order to be convinced.

There's no evidence for a lot of things you believe...

If I told you "Anybody who doesn't perform fellatio on a reptile and sell all their possessions within the next 40 days WILL die of cancer." wouldn't you want extremely good evidence to believe this before you did it?

The human population would already be dead if that was true making this example just bad...

Just a question, do you actually read religious books or just take certain controversial excerpts you find in the headlines...

[Playfishpaste]

You know politically correct is code for lie right...

I am the farthest thing in the world from politically correct. I favor honesty, and if something is honestly right and important, I will do it, even if it means raping a baby in the process in front of several people.

I would think that it would be a pretty big deal...

Will knowing whether or not my mother was a prostitute determine the entire course of my life? Will it influence every single one of my actions? Will it define my meaning in life? No. Compared to religion, it's not that big of a deal at all. Important to me? Yes, but I wouldn't be willing to scrounge around for evidence for it with no basis.

There's no evidence for a lot of things you believe...

Name one this that is critical to my existence which I have accepted at face value without evidence?

You are truly a strange person if you would really make life changing decisions with no evidence.

The human population would already be dead if that was true making this example just bad...

Huh? No it wouldn't, he tells you it's going to happen in forty days. So you've either got the option of either:

A. accepting his belief at face value (and then finding the nearest lizard and selling quite a few things)

or

B. Not accept the belief on behalf of the fact that it is ridiculous and has no evidence.

Just a question, do you actually read religious books or just take certain controversial excerpts you find in the headlines...

I have read the bible and the Koran, and am working on the Bhagavad Gita.

What kind of reptile are we talking about?

Really hot green ones ala star trek. http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/me...28Orion%29.jpg

[Phier]

"Anybody who doesn't perform fellatio on a reptile and sell all their possessions within the next 40 days WILL die of cancer." wouldn't you want extremely good evidence to believe this before you did it?

What kind of reptile are we talking about?

[Stark of Winterfell]

The only problem, Dr. Zoidberg, is that the very central focus of religion is proselytizing to non-believers. You'll just have to deal with it, I suppose, because that's who we are. If religious people don't proselytize, their faith slowly withers into nothingness. We can't just stop asking you to believe in Jesus, Allah, etc., because our beliefs are at the core of our entire being.

As for the O.P., most theistic people tend to see God as beyond proof. God is simply "I am that am", or "I am that is", "I was that was", or "I will be what will be". There is no explanation which is un-mysterious.

That's not always true. Judaism, for one was, and is still, not very big on conversions. Converting is a big deal, and not simple. It's one reason why there are so few Jews. I can't vouch for any other religions, but I'm pretty sure that Judaism isn't the only one which doesn't expend a great deal of time and energy on gaining new converts. The central focus of religion is to provide a belief structure to its adherents.

[MaximiIian]

This is a tricky subject for me. On the one hand, I am of a very analytical and scientific mindset; I generally do not believe things based on hearsay or anecdotes. This actually fits well with my religion, which evolved out of the occult movement of the late 19th century/early 20th century; the most influential occultists of that period, like Aleister Crowley and Dion Fortune, taught the scientific method, and held strongly to the idea that one should not believe something unless one sees it for oneself and can analyse it.

OTOH, I believe in deities that (from my view) exist outside the observable or physical universe, making empirical study of them pretty much impossible. I do not claim empirical proof of them, nor do I suggest that people are wrong for not believing in them, for I may myself be wrong. They are the one area of my religion that I take on faith and reason, unless one counts personal experiential data as a valid form of empiricism (hint: it's not, since it's personal and thus subjective).

[iudas]

I have no idea what you're on about...

[Shams al-Ma'rifa]

I have no idea what you're on about...

Coming from the guy who stated his moral code was based on "what chicks dig". That's a surprise

[iudas]

Coming from the guy who stated his moral code was based on "what chicks dig". That's a surprise

[Shams al-Ma'rifa]

Because " I have no idea what you're on about..." was even an argument to begin with

[iudas]

No, it was your reference to your inability to use the English language. The argument was the evolutionary one from the other thread...

You'd be better off quoting the Quran than perverting logic the way you do.

[Shams al-Ma'rifa]

No, it was your reference to your inability to use the English language.

Everyone else seems to understand, maybe you're just not up to par then

The argument was the evolutionary one from the other thread...

Compared to yours which was so bad, the mods had to delete it... To be fair they deleted mines as well only because I decided to call you out on your noble moral code...

You'd be better off quoting the Quran than perverting logic the way you do.

iudas you don't quote anything or use sources. You just go around trolling all the innocent theists on this forum then run off into the sunset feeling good about your supposed logical superiority... You are a villain