I thought the battle map reflected the campaign map?

[EncryptedToast]

What gives here, I keep getting bit by this and it's getting old.

The battlemap never seems to reflect what I see on the campaign map. It is really a pain when there are multiple stacks I am facing; I saw this happen several times in my past play session but here is one example:

I was besieging a town to the west of my stack with an army in it; another army of the same faction approaches from the north. So on the campaign map it looks like I will be facing an army to the west and one to the north. In the battlemap during deployment I am trying to keep this in mind and deploy based on this.

The battle starts and the armies are nowhere NEAR the way they looked on the campaign map, so my army is a friggen' mess that is facing the wrong way, defending the wrong hill, etc.

Am I missing something there?!

[Goofy]

Nope, it's normal. Reinforcements must arrive in a corner of the battlemap, this is why. I find it a bit annoying as well.

[John Doe]

Are you sure you did'nt mess up, according to your description, at the start of the battle, you should be facing the army from the north (the attacking I guessed) and they should get reinforced from your left.

I my games, the reinforcement come from roughly the correct direction (except if there is a obstacle (building, river, mountain,....) or more than 1 reinforcement from the same direction). Also the size of the army reinforcement seems to matter, the bigger it is the bigger the variation (especially true when they have missile cavalry)

[EncryptedToast]

Are you sure you did'nt mess up, according to your description, at the start of the battle, you should be facing the army from the north (the attacking I guessed) and they should get reinforced from your left.

Well, yea, that's pretty much what I was expecting. They were nowhere near that, one was off to my right (East) and the other was sort of North/West. I was practically surrounded on the battlemap.

[Old Geezer]

I have an army in a fortress which is being besieged by a force to the southeast and another enemy force is to the north but not adjacent to the enemy that I am sallying against. When I sally both enemy forces appear! I have never seen this. I am playing Stainless Steel 6.1 so perhaps that has something to do with it. Maybe it was just because this was after 9 pm my usual bedtime.

[Baleurion]

I was sieging an Isengard city in The Third Age yesterday (my first campaign on that mod), the city had like 2 units (barely visible on the flag), and right as i entered combat the flag changed to a full army with perfect counter for my cavalry, spearmen.. >_>

[H Con]

I was sieging an Isengard city in The Third Age yesterday (my first campaign on that mod), the city had like 2 units (barely visible on the flag), and right as i entered combat the flag changed to a full army with perfect counter for my cavalry, spearmen.. >_>

That's the garrison script, gives the AI lots of units when they have to defend sieges. All you can do is prepare several stacks to take a city, no matter how puny the defences inside seem to be.

[Baleurion]

That's the garrison script, gives the AI lots of units when they have to defend sieges. All you can do is prepare several stacks to take a city, no matter how puny the defences inside seem to be.

But how does it work exactly? I invaded Isengard today and they didnt seem to get any "new" units.
I'm absolutely stunned by the quality and complexity of these mods, i really am. But sometimes its frustrating for us noobs, when some of the things you all are familiar with isnt explained at all in the overall mod-topics or even in the features list :/

[Lysimachus]

But how does it work exactly? I invaded Isengard today and they didnt seem to get any "new" units.
I'm absolutely stunned by the quality and complexity of these mods, i really am. But sometimes its frustrating for us noobs, when some of the things you all are familiar with isnt explained at all in the overall mod-topics or even in the features list :/

Basically, when you besiege a settlement a script activates (it's possible to create a different script for each city size as well) which spawns a number of units in the city to help the AI (since they're too incompetent to garrison their towns appropriately). Basically means you can't do little cheapshots by taking undefended settlements, but it also means destroying them in the field means nothing because their towns will be fortified regardless of how much you cripple them militarily.

[Sitalkes]

I was sieging an Isengard city in The Third Age yesterday (my first campaign on that mod), the city had like 2 units (barely visible on the flag), and right as i entered combat the flag changed to a full army with perfect counter for my cavalry, spearmen.. >_>

You CAN avoid the garrison script but only by attacking the town on your first chance - as soon as you lay siege to it, the garrison script kicks in. So bring some artillery and/or spies and assault immediately.

[Nazgûl Killer]

What gives here, I keep getting bit by this and it's getting old.

The battlemap never seems to reflect what I see on the campaign map. It is really a pain when there are multiple stacks I am facing; I saw this happen several times in my past play session but here is one example:

I was besieging a town to the west of my stack with an army in it; another army of the same faction approaches from the north. So on the campaign map it looks like I will be facing an army to the west and one to the north. In the battlemap during deployment I am trying to keep this in mind and deploy based on this.

The battle starts and the armies are nowhere NEAR the way they looked on the campaign map, so my army is a friggen' mess that is facing the wrong way, defending the wrong hill, etc.

Am I missing something there?!

The problem is that sometimes the game cannot fit an army the size of X into a spot the size of Y - If Y is smaller than X, of course - As such it resorts to transporting said army to an appropriate spot, as close as it can to its original spot.

It also makes sense - If the army cannot pass in proper battle formations through one terrain, they will go around, no matter the implications of such a move because it's either that or risk getting utterly destroyed because your army was out of formation.

With that in mind, I must add that you should not rush into battle quickly and wait until all your armies are ready, and, when two armies are besieging one city, have BOTH of them construct rams and ladders so that this kind of situation won't happen again. This way, the armies will appear on opposite sides of the city and breach both walls - Which makes strategical sense to divide your enemy's armies, no?

In any way - I also suggest you tick the "No Battle Time Limit" option at the start of the campaign (Or untick, I do it automatically so I fail to notice) so that you can take your time instead of being pressed to measure up to a certain time, thus you can easily prepare your army in time.

Good luck!

[Goofy]

@Naz: it's better to check the box in the campaign menu - it can be unchecked during the campaign.

[IZob]

Tip: Don't ever use the settlement size on the campaign map as a scale to determine were reinforcements appear. For example, a river may pass right next to a settlement but in the battle field, the river is quiet far away. usually the river is just out side of the major battle field.
Reinforcements appear on the battle field by their placement on the campaign map.
For example: 'X' indicates empty ground, O indicates reinforcements, 'A' indicates attacking army and 'D' indicates the defending army.

O X X
A D X
X X X

In this situation (above) on the campaign map, you have one army as reinforcements coming from the top right hand corner (O). There is already a army on the battlefield attacking (A). This army will have reinforcements appearing North while it is much closer to the middle, attacking army 'D'.

X O X
X D A
A X A

In this case above we have 3 attacking armys (besieging the settlement or attacking the army) and one reinforcing army to the north. Note only 1 army can start a attack on a enemy army. The rest of the surrounding armies will appear as reinforcements ("Assisting/responding for the attack").
The bottom attacking armies 'A' will appear from the bottom corners of the battle map.If you selected one of these armies to attack instead then that army will not be set as reinforcements and will instead by engaging the enemy army (D). The reinforcing army 'O' will appear at the very top center of the map. The last Attacking army 'A' will appear from the right at the center of the map.

The triggering army is always in combat first, all other armies will follow as reinforcements UNLESS they are besieging a base together.

[Sitalkes]

Tip: Don't ever use the settlement size on the campaign map as a scale to determine were reinforcements appear. For example, a river may pass right next to a settlement but in the battle field, the river is quiet far away. usually the river is just out side of the major battle field.
Reinforcements appear on the battle field by their placement on the campaign map.
For example: 'X' indicates empty ground, O indicates reinforcements, 'A' indicates attacking army and 'D' indicates the defending army.

O X X
A D X
X X X

In this situation (above) on the campaign map, you have one army as reinforcements coming from the top right hand corner (O). .

That's the top left corner!

There is already a army on the battlefield attacking (A). This army will have reinforcements appearing North while it is much closer to the middle, attacking army 'D'..

I'm not so sure, as there are no friendly forces in bottom row of XXX won't the battle be turned 90 degrees left so that army A will be in the centre of the battlefield, and reinforcements O will be on their left? Doesn't matter who's side the reinforcements are on, that's where they appear.

In other words, I think that this would result in a battle that looked like this:

X DX
O AX

X O X
X D A
A X A

In this case above we have 3 attacking armys (besieging the settlement or attacking the army) and one reinforcing army to the north. Note only 1 army can start a attack on a enemy army. The rest of the surrounding armies will appear as reinforcements ("Assisting/responding for the attack").
The bottom attacking armies 'A' will appear from the bottom corners of the battle map.If you selected one of these armies to attack instead then that army will not be set as reinforcements and will instead by engaging the enemy army (D). The reinforcing army 'O' will appear at the very top center of the map. The last Attacking army 'A' will appear from the right at the center of the map.

The triggering army is always in combat first, all other armies will follow as reinforcements UNLESS they are besieging a base together.

I agree. There's one other example - surrounding your enemy. On the strategic map, it looks like this:

X O X
X D X
A X O

In this example, you will have reinforcements O coming on behind the enemy, reinforcements coming on in the right-hand corner, and the main army A coming on to the left of the enemy. The enemy should be approximately in the centre of the battlefield.

[EncryptedToast]

Necro on my own thread

Have started playing again recently, and noticed this same thing is happening to me. I never seem to have any idea where the enemy is during deployment so most of the time any setup time I take is worthless. i.e. if on the campaign map it looks like they are to the east of me, if I deploy my forces with that in mind 99% of the time they are on the opposite side.

I also noticed in other threads that supposedly having spies in your army will give you the whereabouts of the enemy in the battle map; I have not found this to be the case. This is very frustrating especially with units that can deploy stakes; what good are they if the enemy is coming from the other direction?!?

Am using Kingdoms (no mods) if it matters....would really like to know if I am missing something, as this is a rather huge thing to have to guess at every single battle.

[Sulfurion Blackfyre]

The Battle Map actually does reflect the Campaign Map in a way, say, if you run into an enemy in a mountainous area, the battle map will be in a mountainous area, it won't randomly put a near-sea map or something. Most of the reinforcements also come from the "right" way, but there are exceptions, but nonetheless it's wise to consider your position when attacking or defending, because as it is in the strat map, so it shall be (mostly) in the battle map.

[EncryptedToast]

The Battle Map actually does reflect the Campaign Map in a way, say, if you run into an enemy in a mountainous area, the battle map will be in a mountainous area, it won't randomly put a near-sea map or something. Most of the reinforcements also come from the "right" way, but there are exceptions, but nonetheless it's wise to consider your position when attacking or defending, because as it is in the strat map, so it shall be (mostly) in the battle map.

Sort of, in that if there are mountains on the campaign map than yes they will also be in the battle map.

But what I am getting at is more along the lines of the enemy being nowhere near I expect them to be. I understand I should not know *exactly* where everything is, but is it not reasonable that thousands of men would give at least something of clue as to which direction they are? Let me see if I can show this with some crude (dont laugh!) images:

The green deployment area is me, the red is what I can see of the enemies.

Here is an example of me setting up my forces based on what I see on the campaign map.



For simplification lets assume I am attacking a force from the south, so naturally I would expect them to be north of me. All I really know for sure when I am setting up is my deployment area, the enemies deployment area and where I *think* they will be coming from based on the campaign map.

Almost every time what really happens is more like this:



So any thought I put into deployment is wasted, stakes are useless, units are all in the wrong areas, etc.

I see this so much that I am really wondering if there is some integral part of the game that I am missing....

[Entropy Judge]

Sort of, in that if there are mountains on the campaign map than yes they will also be in the battle map.

But what I am getting at is more along the lines of the enemy being nowhere near I expect them to be. I understand I should not know *exactly* where everything is, but is it not reasonable that thousands of men would give at least something of clue as to which direction they are? Let me see if I can show this with some crude (dont laugh!) images:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

The green deployment area is me, the red is what I can see of the enemies.

Here is an example of me setting up my forces based on what I see on the campaign map.



For simplification lets assume I am attacking a force from the south, so naturally I would expect them to be north of me. All I really know for sure when I am setting up is my deployment area, the enemies deployment area and where I *think* they will be coming from based on the campaign map.

Almost every time what really happens is more like this:



So any thought I put into deployment is wasted, stakes are useless, units are all in the wrong areas, etc.

I see this so much that I am really wondering if there is some integral part of the game that I am missing....

Are you taking into account the actual terrain in the battlemap? The AI has the same option to deploy troops that you do, after all. If there's a more defensible position elsewhere on the map, the AI will take it; similarly, if it looks like *you* are in a bad spot, the AI will usually move for you, even if you're the attacker. I typically just place my guys in the center at the front (if I'm attacking), unless there's a ridgeline or hill that would be advantageous to take. Similarly, if I'm defending, I like to put my guys as far back as possible (again, without wasting defensible positions), as that gives me plenty of time to change positions based on the AI's movements.

Regarding the bolded section in the spoiler: remember that when you enter a battle, the positions you are in are reciprocal - the opposing army is placed in the exact same position your own army is placed in, just in their own deployment area.

[Sitalkes]

It also depends what size the armies are - if the AI is a smaller army it will usually get some defensible terrain and start on top of a hill or sand dune or whatever. The battle terrain is very much dictated by the strategic map. If you are on the slope of a hill on the strategic map, this will be depicted on the battle map - the slope will be in your favour if it is so on the strategic map. If you are next to a river, the terrain often slopes down to a river and if the river is behind your opponent on the strategic map it will be there on the battle map and your opponent won't be able to rout across it. You have to look at the strategic map very carefully when you commit to a battle - you might get an ambush if you are attacked while in a wood for instance. Ambush terrain doesn't reflect the battle terrain (at least in TATW where you ambush in woods but there's not a wood in sight).

I always get the location of my opponent's army right if I remember their relative location before the battle. Always check the brown blobs around the army, you know, the ones that look like this:

OOO
OAO
OOO

Now you move your army into contact, but don't attack, so it looks like this:

OOO
OAO
OOX

If your army is "X" then the AI will be in the centre or to the left of your army, because that's how you contacted him. If you have allied armies they will be similarly located. So

OOO
OAO
xxX

if "xx" are two allied armies, then they will be to the left of you, next to each other. Sometimes there are difficulties with the terrain so that some stupid cliff face prevents them from getting onto the battlefield but they will still be there.

[EncryptedToast]

Now you move your army into contact, but don't attack, so it looks like this:

OOO
OAO
OOX

If your army is "X" then the AI will be in the centre or to the left of your army, because that's how you contacted him. If you have allied armies they will be similarly located.

I understand perfectly what you are saying and I appreciate it...but I also have to point out again that I am 100% sure that this is not always the case. Wish I had a way to record it! Nine times out of ten I will expect exactly what you described based on the campaign map but once the battle starts it looks like this instead:


OOA
OOO
OXO

This has a couple ramifications:

1) My forces have been set up to face an army that is "up and to the left" of me. I may as well have been ambushed.
2) The enemy will just sit there and do nothing until I move. They always seem to have the upper hand.


*still confused*