Rant on orc factions

**Valiant Champion** · December 01, 2009, 08:06 AM

After playing all the good factions I have noticed that in every campaign eventually the orc factions are destroyed and the human factions are left standing. Harad is the toughest of the evil factions.

The orc factions units need to have higher stats or morale to prop up their armies better so that you don't end up chasing hordes of fleeing orcs. Some units like Urukhai and Uruks should have sky high morale, not just barely excellent. As for the Orc of the misty mountians they need a uber unit or more. They seem to almost always get demolished within the first 50 turns cause they don't have the resources and superior units to hold off the good forces.

The orc factions should be a flood of ungodly creatures overrunning middle earth. I know this will over balance the game for those who play the orc factions however if middle earth is left alone to follow through on the AI only and no human interference I think the orc factions will get owned.

Perhaps Mordor can be like the papal faction in like you can never eradicate them and you can change the campaign goals for all factions to not include the destruction of mordor but only the taking of barad dur.

Just some suggestions.

**Seleukos_I.** · December 01, 2009, 09:11 AM

Actually in most of my campaigns Evil was very and did not die. Mordor overruns Gondor, Rohan gets conquered by Isengard and so on...

**illeria** · December 01, 2009, 09:36 AM

Yeah it varies sometimes the OOTMM pwn the dwarves sometimes they dont just depends

**Hermes Trismegistos** · December 01, 2009, 10:08 AM

Funny how the opinions differ on this - the recent "Evil always beats good" thread is basically the opposite of this one... I personally have the feeling that the orcish factions get weaker with every patch lately - because autoresolve gets more and more "realistic" (to the disadvantage of the orcs).

Like the OP I think a little power up for the Orcish factions would be great. But then, if the OotMM get the Balrog and Isengard at least two new units it seems it is already on the way...

**athanaric** · December 01, 2009, 10:26 AM

Originally Posted by Valiant Champion

Harad is the toughest of the evil factions.

That is as it should be. Harad was a powerful kingdom of its own, and the Haradrim, together with the Easterlings, were the toughest soldiers of Sauron. This is stated (or hinted at) in the book more than once. When Sauron finally was eliminated, all the Uruks and other evil creatures lost their heads and ran like chickens, while the Haradrim and Easterling warriors tried to fight on.

Some units like Urukhai and Uruks should have sky high morale, not just barely excellent.

That would be plain wrong. Uruk-hai are just better than regular orcs. They are certainly not stronger or better motivated than Elves or human warriors, although some scenes in the Jackson films might elicit such false assumptions.

The orc factions should be a flood of ungodly creatures overrunning middle earth. I know this will over balance the game for those who play the orc factions however if middle earth is left alone to follow through on the AI only and no human interference I think the orc factions will get owned.

There you got it right. The strength of the orcs lies in numbers and competent leadership, not in individual prowess.

**Point Blank** · December 01, 2009, 12:21 PM

Amount of 'evil always beats good' threads is about same as 'good always beats evil'. So everything is probably about right.

**BohemianHussar** · December 02, 2009, 01:13 AM

I think orcs are fine the way they are, OTMM have taken all of eriador in my game, and isengard has held its own pretty well. And lets not forget the trolls and the wargs, those make up for the lack of morale/power of the orcs. Who doesn't like a train of trolls that will never route hehehe.

Uruks to me are fine the way they are, they still are orcs (just bigger and given a higher status) so its not unlikely they're morale can still be broken.

**jinjo** · December 02, 2009, 11:05 AM

in my campaigns, mostly evil is better than good factions
but there were some moments when good factions crashed evil

**Myshkin** · December 02, 2009, 11:42 AM

Actually both threads are correct, these people complaining have actually a point. I am not saying I agree, but there is a point.

When using autoresolve (like when AI does in campaigns) Mordor is superior of all. When Mordor is not AI controlled things are a bit different, since the player has to play the battles (no auto-resolve) and campaign scripts are not there to babysit Mordor any more.

I am not saying Mordor is a weak faction, but it's actually much harder to play against it, but not so easy with it.

... and yes, in principle Harad is even weaker than Mordor.

**Jean=A=Luc** · December 02, 2009, 12:41 PM

Tbh it's refreshing to not be able to simply charge into an enemy line and insta-win. Trying to crack open those Gondorian tin cans with Orc Raiders or Harad Spearmen can be pretty fun.

**Big Pacha** · December 02, 2009, 09:05 PM

Originally Posted by Jean=A=Luc

Tbh it's refreshing to not be able to simply charge into an enemy line and insta-win. Trying to crack open those Gondorian tin cans with Orc Raiders or Harad Spearmen can be pretty fun.

Absolutely! That's why, as Mordor, we must use another Orcish trait other than number = Orcs run fast. I always try to circle & ambush the Gondorians (=avoid frontal confrontation) so in the end they will panick & not me despite my Orcs lower morale. The Orc Archers can be quite efficient if wisely used & Scouts aren't so bad vs. Militia. Mordor isn't so easy anyway...

**PSIHOPAT** · December 03, 2009, 12:15 AM

Originally Posted by Big Pacha

Mordor isn't so easy anyway...

Yes...

Is not easy with Mordor...

IS VERY EASY!

**Abyrvalg** · December 03, 2009, 03:33 AM

Originally Posted by PSIHOPAT

Yes...

Is not easy with Mordor...

IS VERY EASY!

Oh, no.
In 1.2 I blitzed Gondor with Nazguls and at turn 25 attacked Rohan.
Now I am at turn 90 and still defending Osgiliath and Cair Andros against this guys in shiny armor.
It is sort of WW1 stalemate. I have enough orcs to defend, but not enough to attack.
So, I sent my Nazguls through Rohan to raid western Gondor cities. Hope it will weaken Gondor a bit.
As PB said

Originally Posted by Point Blank

Nazguls are a big help.

And yes, Gondor is at war with Harad too.
Now I see how exactly Gondor protects other lands.
I dunno is it lore-friendly or not, but for me it is definitely... immersive.

TATW 1.3, latest RR/RC

**Point Blank** · December 03, 2009, 02:25 AM

Nazguls are a big help.

**PSIHOPAT** · December 03, 2009, 03:44 AM

Problem is not for Mordor...

It's for you...

Learn first how to effectively lead them...

and than make comments...

Any army lead by nazgul is terrible...

Orc mauler are able to butcher any gondorian spearman or any other elite units.

Fire from arrows+fear from nazgul+ap units+large number...make any army to loose horrible any fight.

Mordor is very strong from the start to the end...

**Big Pacha** · December 03, 2009, 05:10 AM

@ PSIHOPAT:
1- please try not to mock or patronize other members, It won't give you any credit or respect here. Posts are supposed to help others, not rant on members.
2- when you make bold statements implying that we suck at TW and you're the best... please give some better proofs & facts to what you say, and not just plain simple statements.
3- try to play on VH/VH and we'll see. You do? Prove it. Real screenshots welcome

4- nobody said that Mordor was weak. It is IMO the strongest faction, I voted for it!That doesn't mean their campaign is easy. Rhûn is easier because of better position, time to build a decent army, Dale as a weaker opponents than Gondor (well, in 1.2) and Dwarves unfit to fight their good Horse Archers & heavy Cav. See what I mean?

EDIT: I missed that:

Originally Posted by PSIHOPAT

Any army lead by nazgul is terrible...

Nazguls have huge fighting stats, scare the hell out of any enemy, are usually 8+ stars generals + bodyguards=Heavily Armored Mounted Knights (BN) with monstrous fighting stats both in attack, defense, morale etc. + only Mordor cavalry unit (=puirsuit). I really can't see how an Orc on foot with Uruks around and basic general stats can beat that.

**Point Blank** · December 03, 2009, 07:16 AM

Latest RC has lowered charge distances for Trolls, which means when they charge and hit the enemy units and break up their formations, the following uruk/orc infantry is closer behind and can often overrun the disrupted enemy before they kill the trolls like before and re-form their formation.

**trance** · December 03, 2009, 07:46 AM

Well, duh, they have trolls. Enough said.

And yes Nazguls are like, a nightmare. I've seen them take out several spearmen units in frontal charge, cutting through them like a knife cuts through molten butter. But I think PSIHOPAT meant "terrible" like in "intimidating". While I can feel what you're getting at Pacha, the guy's not very good at english, and probably really means well.

P.S

Latest RC has lowered charge distances for Trolls, which means when they charge and hit the enemy units and break up their formations, the following uruk/orc infantry is closer behind and can often overrun the disrupted enemy before they kill the trolls like before and re-form their formation.

That tactic can literally destroy any unit. Preferrably have a unit of Orc Maulers in pursuit of the trolls, absolutely devestating.

**Big Pacha** · December 03, 2009, 07:59 AM

Yes, excellent tactic indeed. You can/must use it playing the OotMM.

@ trance: I get it, you must be right, but a bit of modesty wouldn't hurt anyway

**Valiant Champion** · December 03, 2009, 09:21 AM

That tactic can literally destroy any unit. Preferrably have a unit of Orc Maulers in pursuit of the trolls, absolutely devestating.

Actually that is a very good tactic if you have battle hardened elite unit whittled down in strength attacking as well. You back them up with lesser troops to cover their flanks and rear to allow them to do their thing.