Romania, WW2 and the holocaust

[Carpathian Wolf]

I'm writing this thread up which I believe is long over due. This is to a statement that seems to come from a prevalent historical myth that Romania was the 2nd largest perpetrator of the holocaust in WW2. Below are two youtube videos made by Romano-Dacis with full documentation and sources such as records from the Germans themselves and quotes by the Jews concerning the Romanian role in the holocaust.



"While the world blithely watched the spectacle of the annihilation of the European Jews, Romania was willing to welcome Jewish refugees and was prepared to open her harbors for them...Judaism lost 6 million of its members, the world lost its humanity as well as Christian love for one's neighbor. In contrast, the Romanian people strove to preserve their faith in humanity. And we, the Jews, are and remain indebted to the Romanian people for this.

~ Moshe Carmilly-Weinberger


That's just one of the quotes. And here for a more in depth analyses.



My only challenge to the videos was concerning Ion Antonescu. I don't believe he was an anti-semite. He didn't have a problem with Jews, he had a problem with the Jews that were moved into Basarabia by the Soviets in exchange for the local Romanians, Jews who did not even speak Romanian.

[Romano-Dacis]

Oh boy...
Just as a disclaimer: after I made that first video I later found out it was possible that the document I got those quotes from could have been presenting forgeries. To this date I do not know one way or another. The one by Carmilly-Weinberger is true however; he even wrote a book on how Jews from Hungarian-occupied Northern Transylvania were fleeing into Southern Transylvania to escape deportation to concentration camps.

Anyway, these are the important facts I was trying to portray:
1) The Holocaust carried out in Romania was not a systematic plan of extermination. There was no "final solution" in Romania and when Hitler proposed the deportation of all of Romania's Jews to Auschwitz Antonescu refused. The Holocaust in Romania was not an organized top-down operation but rather was carried out entirely at the lower echelons. The treatment of Jews in occupied zones was dependent more on field commanders who did not have any explicit orders one way or another. Rather ironically, it was actually this disorganization that resulted in the most deaths. Jews died in concentration camps in Transnistria due to starvation or cold, as supply shipments were poorly planned. There were no gas chambers, and certainly no crematoria. Likewise Jews died during the Iasi massacre on trains that were never intended for extermination. Rather, they were just sent around with no one knowing what to do with them, resulting in a tragically lethal case of disorganization. The camps were intended for labor and internment rather than extermination, though some recent documents show that Antonescu may have been intending to have a permanent Jewish resettlement in Transnistria.

2) The death toll is exaggerated and statistically impossible. Before anyone makes a stupid assumption, it should be pointed out that the disorganized nature of the Holocaust in this area resulted in very poor book-keeping. This is shown by the actual estimates provided by Elie Wiesel, ranging from 280,000 to 380,000 for the territory of Romania and Transnistria. This discrepancy of over 25% is huge; it would be like saying the Holocaust killed "anywhere between 4 and 6 million Jews." Such inaccuracy is simply unacceptable. Furthermore, as is shown in my videos, the higher estimates are statistically impossible given that you had:
Initially in Romania: 750,000 Jews
At the end in Romania: 350,000 Jews
128,000 of the difference accounted for by the Hungarians in an incident not involving Romania at all. The Romanians certainly killed Jews who were natives of Ukraine, and therefore are not accounted for in the 750,000 figure, but on the other hand the 350,000 figure also does not include Jews in Basarabia, which was annexed by the Soviet Union after the war. That region had by far the largest population of Romanian Jews. According to official documents there were 100,000 Romanian Jews still in the Transnistria region at 1945, that is not including those in Basarabia. This figure combined with that of the Holocaust in Northern Transylvania makes it impossible for the Romanians to have killed more than 200,000 Jews.

3) Most of the Jews that died and are attributed to "Romanians" were actually killed by Ukranians, Germans, Hungarians, and other nationalities. The Holocaust in Northern Transylvania, resulting in 128,000 deaths, has already been mentioned. Additionally, as shown in video 2, German operatives in the Romanian occupied region were largely responsible for the exterminations. Sure, one could say the Romanians had a "lethal indifference" (and in some instances, lethal assistance) but the deaths the area under Romanian occupation are largely attributed to the Einsatzgruppen, RSHA, VoMi, and other branches of the 3rd Reich. These groups were under the control of Himmler and were seperate from the Romanian chain-of-command. Ultimately you had an area nominally controlled by the Romanians but with German liquidation units running amok, and the Romanians lacking the authority (and sometimes the will) to stop them.

4) The Jews killed in the Romanian Holocaust need to be considered in the specific context of the Romanian front and not in the general context of the Holocaust. Transnistria had its own concentration camps and these Jews were not sent to Auschwitz. Unlike many Jews that perished in Europe, the Jews that perished in the Romanian Holocaust were very close to the frontlines and posed a severe security risk, which evidently required containment. The Americans likewise placed German and Japanese ethnics into concentration camps in World War 2, and the US was halfway across the world from both those countries. Most of the Jews in Basarabia were ethnically Russian, few could even speak Romanian, and most had showed very overt sympathies for the Soviets when they annexed Basarabia in 1940. Regardless of their motives for doing so, it is clear that they did support the Soviets in their annexation (as they also did in Poland, when they greeted the Soviet invaders as liberators) and that made them a very real security concern. Many of the pogroms were created largely out of this fear that they were Soviet agents. The Iasi Pogrom was started by eyewitness accounts that the Jews were spotting for Russian bombers. Whether the accounts are veritable or not is anyone's guess, but it was a legitemate concern for an alien population that shared its ethnic background with a hostile country and had shown overt support. Basically, it was not an act of unprovoked aggression purely motivated by race or religion; Antonescu needed to secure his supply lines and the fastest way to do it was to send the Jews to concentration camps for the duration of the operation.

5) Point 4 is clarified by the fact that survivors in these camps were taken back into Romania when Romanian forces retreated from Transnistria. It would also be quite suspicious to believe Antonescu intended to racially cleanse Romania and yet show such leniance when it came to gypsies. The Gypsies which were deported were entirely nomadic Gypsies and it had to do with a proven problem that (don't laugh) Gypsies were stealing metal from train tracks. The nomadic Gypsies do this even today, so it is not so hard to imagine they did it in the past.

Anyway, it was a tragic event and sadly one that was catalyzed by the endemic anti-Semitism in interbellic Romania. I'm actually very proud of Romanian Jewish culture, especially our influences on klezmer music and the outstanding cultural achievements in Iasi (first theater and newspapers in Yiddish for example). It's quite unfortunate that there are barely any Jews left in Romania today due to emigration, which is weakening our cultural diversity. Still, I believe we should analyze historical events thoroughly and the Romanian Holocaust is no different. One cannot just quote the Wiesel Commission's famous sentence about "Romania bears responsibility for the deaths of 280,000 to 380,000 Jews" without reading the entire commission. The devil is in the details.

As absolute proof that the Holocaust in Romania was caused by pragmatic concerns rather than xenophobia, it can clearly be seen that the Jews in Romania proper survived the war almost unscathed. There were two notable pogroms in Romania throughout the entire war. The one in Bucuresti caused by the Iron Guard was more of an attempted coup d'etat in which 120 Jews died, and this was quickly stopped with lethal force (against the Guardists) by Antonescu. The one in Iasi was caused, as pointed out, by reports of Jews assisting Soviet bombers. Just compare Romania to other countries affected by the Holocaust. In the example of Hungary or Estonia almost the entire Jewish population was annihilated, while nearly 50% of the Jews in Romania survived, and of that almost 100% survived in the old Kingdom. It would not make sense that Antonescu would leave behind so many living Jews if he was a raving anti-Semite hell-bent on extermination, and the fact that Romania had the 2nd largest population of Jews (after the Soviet Union) is telling.

Due to a lack of time this will likely be the only post I will make in this thread, so I wanted to get everything out of the way at the start.

[Bovril]

5) Point 4 is clarified by the fact that survivors in these camps were taken back into Romania when Romanian forces retreated from Transnistria. It would also be quite suspicious to believe Antonescu intended to racially cleanse Romania and yet show such leniance when it came to gypsies. The Gypsies which were deported were entirely nomadic Gypsies and it had to do with a proven problem that (don't laugh) Gypsies were stealing metal from train tracks. The nomadic Gypsies do this even today, so it is not so hard to imagine they did it in the past.

This seems like a poor excuse for collusion in mass murder.

[Baron Vlad Felix]

This seems like a poor excuse for collusion in mass murder.

it is at least honest......and your nation?

[Carpathian Wolf]

This seems like a poor excuse for collusion in mass murder.

Kind of a vague pointless statement.

[Bovril]

it is at least honest......and your nation?

My nation (the UK) comitted horendous and unjustifiable war crimes during WW2, but I'm not going to try and justify the bombing of Dresden, for example, which would be far easier than the participation in the mass murder of gypsies.

Kind of a vague pointless statement.

It's not vague at all. It's a brief and concise assesment of a justification for war crimes. Perhaps you think the collective punishment of a whoe ethnic group for the theft of metal by a proportion of them is a good idea?

[Carpathian Wolf]

My nation (the UK) comitted horendous and unjustifiable war crimes during WW2, but I'm not going to try and justify the bombing of Dresden, for example, which would be far easier than the participation in the mass murder of gypsies.



It's not vague at all. It's a brief and concise assesment of a justification for war crimes. Perhaps you think the collective punishment of a whoe ethnic group for the theft of metal by a proportion of them is a good idea?

It wasn't punishment of a whole ethnic group, simply the gypsies which were nomads in the area. Was it PC? No I won't pretend it was. But it wasn't some "deep underlying Romanian nationalistic hatred" that did it either.

[Baron Vlad Felix]

My nation (the UK) comitted horendous and unjustifiable war crimes during WW2, but I'm not going to try and justify the bombing of Dresden, for example, which would be far easier than the participation in the mass murder of gypsies.



It's not vague at all. It's a brief and concise assesment of a justification for war crimes. Perhaps you think the collective punishment of a whoe ethnic group for the theft of metal by a proportion of them is a good idea?

Do you know that ,when the Russians liberated Yugoslavia(along with the serbs Partisans)
,more civilians was killed by US and UK bombing ,than Germans bombing in four years!......were very humane,they not spared hospitals and schools!

[Baron Vlad Felix]

so ro.......You think that someone will believe?

[motiv-8]

,more civilians was killed by US and UK bombing ,than Germans bombing in four years!......

No...

were very humane,they not spared hospitals and schools!

The Germans destroyed the Serbian National Library. Go cry somewhere else.

[Bovril]

No...

Are you sure about this? I thought it was generally recognised that the allies killed more civilians through bombing than they axis powers. Of course, the axis powers killed more civillians over all. I thought it was certainly true that more Germans were killed by British bombing than Britains by German bombing.

[motiv-8]

Are you sure about this? I thought it was generally recognised that the allies killed more civilians through bombing than they axis powers.

As far as I'm aware, when the Allies bombed Belgrade they caused significantly less casualties and material damage than when the Germans did. Remember, the post I was responding to was referring to Yugoslavia, in which the most notable target was Belgrade -- not the entire strategic bombing initiative.

What I think needs to be pointed out about the overall picture however is that the Germans simply lacked the capacity for widespread strategic bombing -- if they hadn't, there is absolutely no doubt they would have employed it to the fullest.

[Bovril]

As far as I'm aware, when the Allies bombed Belgrade they caused significantly less casualties and material damage than when the Germans did. Remember, the post I was responding to was referring to Yugoslavia

Oh, I see. I misunderstood your post. And I agree with what you said about capacity.

[Baron Vlad Felix]

No...

Belgrade eleven times been the target of attacks from the air, and that official allies, the English and Americans. Worst air strikes were made on the greatest Christian holiday, the first and second day of Easter, 16 and 17 April 1944.
And 1944. affected the densely populated urban area, such as Bajlonijeve the market and surrounding streets in which there were no military facilities. Then the market Kalenić guvnu. Shelled, and the first hospital for babies in Belgrade Krunskoj Street. The most important points germans occupiers in Belgrade did not even touch!
Affected the main railway station and stop in Topčideru and Rakovica, the Palace of Albania, Faculty of Engineering, fabric factories in the Government Mitic Karaburmi ... No zaobiđeni nor Serbian National theater, bioskopi on the scales, galleries, libraries ...
Even to this day do not know the precise number of civilian victims. Estimated to be killed between 1.160 and 2.000 inhabitants of Belgrade, and that it is harder and easier injured between 1.468 and 3.000. German losses were much smaller. Bombing of Belgrade on Easter Sunday 1944. performed the "flying fortress" B-17 bombers and B-24, who had to be a greater irony, called "liberatori." Belgrade has destroyed the so-called. carpet bombs. For more than half a year, the method of alignment with the earth being applied in Germany.
On Easter Sunday the same year was bombed and Montenegrin capitals. Cetinje was in ruins. The same day they shelled Žabljak, Šavnik, Kolasin, Andrijevica, Gacko, Bileća ...
Niksic was bombed on the flourishing 1944. Podgorica On the eve Đurđevdan, 5 May 1944, started 120 "liberatora." Nearly half the city was destroyed to the ground. Estimates say that 15,000 residents of the Podgorica nearly every seventh, were about 2,000, lost his life, and that it is harder or easier wounded about 4,000 people. German occupier had 15 dead!

Angloamerikans continued to bomb Belgrade until mid-September 1944. Upon consequences is particularly difficult it was from 18 May. Then the target selected province capitals in which they live is mainly poor layer of the population. Stradali are Pasini hill, Kotež, builder and Čubura. Estimated to be in this, the third masakriranju Belgrade by about 2,000 people.

At the mention angloamericans victims of the bombing said Metropolitan Josif. Recalling several thousand present that the attacks made to most holy Christian holiday, a day when it celebrates the victory of life over death, he wondered where this civilization, Christianity, culture ... With a special passion and repeatedly shelled the Nis, since 1943. until September the following year. On the second largest city in Serbia, "allies" throw 23rd June 1944. phosphoric bombs, which for half a year fall in Dresden.

And 1944. bombs were thrown and at Smederevo, Kragujevac, Loznica, Ćupriju, Kruševac periphery ... Unregistered Kraljevo was attacked the night 11th August 1944. Bombs are falling on Dečji home. Only in a collective grave buried 40 victims . For others, even until today has not determined a final number.

In Banat place Alibunar of Anglo-American bomb victims is 128 civilians, or one quarter of total population. However, the biggest singles in the destruction of Serbia and Montenegro, if not in the Balkans, has experienced Leskovac, 6 September 1944, on the birthday of King Peter II. That day under the ruins of the rest of Leskovac, as is estimated, nearly one fifth of the 28,000 inhabitants. They are more than 5,000. German losses were almost three hundred times smaller.

They didnt bomb only Alibunar, but also the romanian village in the neighorhood. In the North and Central Banat , the towns were also bomb. , I think that Zrenjanin and Kikinda.....some americans bombers felt there. If werent for partizans to save them, they would probably be killd by peasents.

The bombing of Leskovac, which is watched with hills, brigadier Meklejn record, "complete Leskovac as to get up in the air in a whirlwind dust, smoke and ruin. Shattering us terribly parala ears ... What's left of Leskovac, lay wrapped the covering of smoke ... I own partisans have looked crestfallen. "

Accounts tragic more several months angloamerican bombings and mass suffering civilian population in Serbia and Montenegro remained unsaved. More than ten ten hundred innocent victims left without mention . Sites without worthily handles. A refuges column of Serbs from the war without memorial signs. So over those victims done another, the most serious impingement. Settled are in the sealed bunker sinner historical past............
And more,more......

[motiv-8]

Thank you for confirming for us that the German bombing was more destructive than the Allied bombing.

[bushbush]

are the videos still working? I can't seem to watch them now.

[Yorkshireman]

The Rumanian government has admitted the part it played in the Holocaust with the publication of the Wiesel Commission report in 2003. Much more informative than home made Youtube vids.

The Wiesel Commission is the common name given to the International Commission on the Holocaust in Romania, which was established by former President Ion Iliescu in October 2003 to research and create a report on the actual history of the Holocaust in Romania and make specific recommendations for educating the public on the issue. The Commission, which was led by Nobel Peace Prize laureate Elie Wiesel, released its report in late 2004. The Romanian government recognized the report's findings and acknowledged the deliberate participation in the Holocaust by the World War II Romanian regime led by Ion Antonescu. The report assessed that between 280,000 and 380,000 Jews were murdered or died under the supervision and as a result of the deliberate policies of Romanian civilian and military authorities. Over 11,000 Roma were also killed. The Wiesel Commission report also documented pervasive anti-Semitism and violence against Jews in Romania before World War II, when Romania's Jewish population was among the largest in Europe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wiesel_Commission

http://yad-vashem.org.il/about_yad/w...w/report1.html

http://www.ushmm.org/research/center...ls/2005-03-10/

[bushbush]

The Rumanian government has admitted the part it played in the Holocaust with the publication of the Wiesel Commission report in 2003. Much more informative than home made Youtube vids.

the commission is an international commission led by a nobel prize winner and holocaust survivor, Eli Wiesel.

holocaust denying by some is not cool.

the videos have now gone and even the author admitted in the second post he might have used forgeries.

[Romano-Dacis]

the videos have now gone and even the author admitted in the second post he might have used forgeries.

The second video used the Wiesel commission as its source.
And it showed clearly how about 240,000 of those Transnistrian deaths were carried out by Germans and Ukranians. Just search up posts by Dromikaites containing "VoMi" and you should find the exact quotes.

It's not so much a matter of "did Jews die?" as a matter of "who killed them all?"

[bushbush]

The second video used the Wiesel commission as its source.
And it showed clearly how about 240,000 of those Transnistrian deaths were carried out by Germans and Ukranians. Just search up posts by Dromikaites containing "VoMi" and you should find the exact quotes.

It's not so much a matter of "did Jews die?" as a matter of "who killed them all?"

this post?

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...Mi#post4354338

well according to the report:
"Romania under Antonescu was a dictatorial regime, and Antonescu’s orders could condemn to death the Jews of Bessarabia and Bukovina, just as they might allow for the survival of most the Jews of Moldavia and Walachia. The entire repressive military, police, and judicial apparatus was mobilized against the Jews during the first half of the war. Official propaganda successfully presented the Jews as the most important domestic enemy, as Moscow’s or London’s agents, and as the main cause of Romania’s economic difficulties. Acceptance of these lies weighed more heavily than fear as an explanation for the lack of protest against the regime’s policies."

and....

"Official communist historiography often tried to dilute or completely deny the responsibility of Romanians in the slaughter of the Jews, placing all blame on the Germans and déclassé elements in Romanian society. In postcommunist Romania, political and cultural elites often chose to ignore and sometimes chose to encourage pro-Antonescu propaganda, which opened the door to explicit Holocaust denial and the rehabilitation of convicted war criminals. There have been few public voices in opposition to this dominant trend."



romanian nazi government allowing germans and others to kill on their land and worked togther:

"Although the Romanian leadership and bureaucracy shared Germany’s desire to liquidate the Jews, they coordinated their efforts with the Germans with difficulty and only for limited periods. Differences over matters of style, timing, and methodology triggered negative reactions from the Germans, who were often angered by the Romanians’ inefficient pogrom “techniques,” the improvised nature of the “death marches,” the haste of Romanian officials in pressing huge columns of deportees across the Dniester in 1941 and the Bug in 1942, and the fact that the Romanians often did this with little clear plan for what to do with the Jews once they were there, or even expected the Germans to handle the problem for them. In addition, in early 1943, Romanian policy was influenced by Realpolitik. German pressure to hand over the Jews of Old Romania produced a counter-effect: no foreign power would be allowed to dictate to Romanian nationalists what to do with their Jews."

thankfully though the half-ass attitude of romanians even in killing jews (and defending key sectors in Stalingrad) did save many jews' lives later on.