Interpreting what CA means by " cannot change how the game works"

[ray243]

1. "You can change things and we'll probably look the other way as long as you don't change how the game works." (In answer to request to raise some of the limits like DMB model numbers, number of units, population level changes for cities) We never could figure out exactly what 'changing how the game works' meant.

DVK has mentioned this before, when he asked CA for permission to change certain .exe files in the game. However, the response CA give was that you cannot change the way the game works.

I would think that we need to have a discussion/debate among the modding community and to interpret what does CA means by not changing the way game works. If we have a consensus, it could open up more modding opportunities to the modders.

In my opinion, CA's statement is meant to address modder request to make the RTW game engine better than the M2TW or the ETW game engine. This is due to the fact that this could result in a loss of revenue for CA, as people just keep downloading mods for RTW, and don't want to spend money on M2TW or ETW. This is also to ensure people would still have a reason to buy R2TW when it is going to be released.

So various gameplay options available in M2TW such as the prisoner system, unit availability pool system, , the castle/city system and etc should not be implemented in a RTW mod. Additional feature such as a tech tree, election system, and the new school system should also not be implemented into a RTW mod.

The goal of a mod is to make the original game better, but not to the extend in which people would have little to no reason to buy more games from CA. If a mod is able to have every feature CA is implementing in R2TW, then CA would have a decrease in potential customers.

Whereas I strongly believe that in the reply sent by CA to DVK, we are allowed to modify the model numbers, unit numbers , region numbers and etc. This is because the game doesn't change that much even if you have an increase in unit numbers, and increase in provinces.

Having more provinces in a RTW mod will not deter people from buying new total war games, and the same goes to the number of units in the game.

If anything, the mods are already changing the way the game works, where they stretch the map, add more units into the game, implemented new traits system, implemented the AOR system, having zero-turn recruitment, allowing you to have different governing system for every provinces.


So, I would seriously ask the modding community to reconsider what CA means by changing the way the game works. We should not interpret "changing the way the game works" as not being allowed to change the .exe file .

If anything, the forums here should have an official list of what you can do as a modder, and what you cannot do as a modder. This would allow CA to understand what the modders are doing, and would have tell the modding community what we cannot do in a clear cut manner. If CA objects to certain item on that list, the moderators and admin can pull those items off the list.


A rough version of the list:

Battle Map : We are allowed to change the graphics of the battle map, but we should not remake it to a level that is better than the graphics in M2TW.

AOR System : Allowed.

Different governing system for provinces : Allowed.

Unit graphics : Allowed to make it better than vanilla RTW.

Unit recruitment system : Allowed to create a '0' turn recruitment mod.

Unit animation system : allowed, but should not surpass the unit animation as seen in M2TW.

Building graphics : Allowed.

Modifying the .exe file : Up for debate, in regards to increasing the unit limit, province limit and model limit.

Adding gameplay system that is present in other total war games, such as M2TW and ETW : NOT ALLOWED.


So let's get this discussion started.

[Spartan198]

I don't know about anyone else, but I interpret this as basically "you can do [insert whatever here] as long as it's not so good that it makes us look bad".

Well, the main problem with that is that most, if not all, of the mods accumulated on this forum alone are better than vanilla in just about every way and put it to shame.

Yeah, great way to encourage us amateur game developers, CA.

[smegma]

I don't know about anyone else, but I interpret this as basically "you can do [insert whatever here] as long as it's not so good that it makes us look bad"

it also means "you can do [insert whatever here] as long as it's not so good that it hurts our DLC sales."

[ray243]

Let's not turn this into another CA bashing thread.

[Aradan]

Modifying the .exe, even to change the slightest thing, is verboten by CA, no matter how you phrase it. There was a request to CA by someone to be allowed to change the hardcoded "Legio" word that is tied to the legionary_unit attribute of the EDU, and the answer was no, for example.

[magpie]

Difficult area,Although even if you mod the game to the last byte so to speak, The player still has to buy a copy of the original from CA/SEGA in order to play it legally.
I doubt its just a vanity thing with the dev,s at CA.They could take a leaf out of the paradox book, who allow the exe to be modded by proven modders under licence, on a profit share basis, don,t see it happening though.Also I seem to remember Jack Lusted saying something last year in one of the ETW threads that the old RTW files had been junked?some people I think were looking for more tools from the old war engine.

[ray243]

Modifying the .exe, even to change the slightest thing, is verboten by CA, no matter how you phrase it. There was a request to CA by someone to be allowed to change the hardcoded "Legio" word that is tied to the legionary_unit attribute of the EDU, and the answer was no, for example.

Can someone find the exact phrase? It have yet to see the exact phrase issued by someone from Creative Assembly, and I think that some modders might have misinterpret what CA means by what we can or cannot modify.

Also, can someone tell me what is the person trying to change in regards to the word " Legio" in the EDU? The changes he want to make might be game changing, and potentially rival the game engine of M2TW.

As of now, I see no clear statement issued by CA regarding modifying the .exe file to allow more provinces or factions.

Difficult area,Although even if you mod the game to the last byte so to speak, The player still has to buy a copy of the original from CA/SEGA in order to play it legally.
I doubt its just a vanity thing with the dev,s at CA.They could take a leaf out of the paradox book, who allow the exe to be modded by proven modders under licence, on a profit share basis, don,t see it happening though.Also I seem to remember Jack Lusted saying something last year in one of the ETW threads that the old RTW files had been junked?some people I think were looking for more tools from the old war engine.

If it is junked, then I don't think CA would mind us changing the .exe to a minor extend. It would be better if we apply the changes we made to the RTW .exe file to the M2TW .exe file. This ensures the M2TW game engine does not lose out to the RTW game engine so to speak.

If we are going to modify the .exe to increase the amount of provinces and units in RTW, we should do the same to M2TW.

Hmm, I wonder what would happen if the modders allow CA to sell their mods as an DLC. Of course, those mods must not use anything that is licensed, such as songs and music files from other movies. This is something that Valve is doing rather well.

Additionally, if CA really junked the RTW/M2TW game engine ( both use the same core engine) , then I would think that this means CA would have less to fear if the fans are modifying the .exe file. The main reason is due to the fact that many of the files the fans want to do is stuff that CA is doing for M2TW. Some of the files in RTW is uncompleted for instance, only to be finished in M2TW.

Hence, they are afraid that fans would want to finish those features they are developing for M2TW. Now with ETW, that contains so many game features that the RTW/M2TW game engine don't even have, there is very little reason why we cannot start making small changes to the RTW/M2TW .exe .

As long as the modding community define the limitation to what we can modify in regards to the .exe, I think CA would be fine with it as it is.

If anything, invite some CA members to watch over this thread, and if our final decision is something that CA don't accept, they can tell that to us.

[magpie]

You bring up some good points Ray I have just one little doubt about our old RTW and MTW2 exe,s. I have the feeling they are still the basis of a lot of the warscape engine. I think our friends in CA may be a bit worried about that.?I myself would love to see more freedom with the old games, as the business model seems to have changed with the latest releases.

[ray243]

You bring up some good points Ray I have just one little doubt about our old RTW and MTW2 exe,s. I have the feeling they are still the basis of a lot of the warscape engine. I think our friends in CA may be a bit worried about that.?I myself would love to see more freedom with the old games, as the business model seems to have changed with the latest releases.

Depends on what information we choose to give out. It is one thing to let people modify the .exe, it is another to release a tutorial telling people how to modify every single aspect of the .exe file.

I would think that if it is the former, CA would turn a blind eye. If it is the later, CA would not find it to be acceptable.

[magpie]

Depends on what information we choose to give out. It is one thing to let people modify the .exe, it is another to release a tutorial telling people how to modify every single aspect of the .exe file.

I would think that if it is the former, CA would turn a blind eye. If it is the later, CA would not find it to be acceptable.

Very true, ray. Now any idea who CA told in the TWC that the exe could not be looked at, and who would approach them to ask for permission to do anything with it.Also who would control the info if permission was given?

[Aradan]

Can someone find the exact phrase? It have yet to see the exact phrase issued by someone from Creative Assembly, and I think that some modders might have misinterpret what CA means by what we can or cannot modify.

Also, can someone tell me what is the person trying to change in regards to the word " Legio" in the EDU? The changes he want to make might be game changing, and potentially rival the game engine of M2TW.

The statement was not made in public, so I cannot provide a link.

What the person was trying to change was, as I said above, the fact that when you recruit a unit with the legionary_unit attribute (ie a 1st Cohort), it gets a harcoded "Legio Blablabla" in its name, where Blablabla depends on the region it's recruited in: Legio Brittanica, Legio Felix, Legio whatever. The name of the legion is moddable, but the word "Legio" is not, it's hardcoded. That's what the guy wanted to change, he wanted to replace the word with another one.

[Halie Satanus]

Going back a few years now I'm pretty sure it was said that since CA did not own the engine RTW and later MTW2 were built on but actually licensed it from another company, which would explain why CA couldn't give permission to alter the exec even if they wanted to.

The info about editing the exec was originally posted on the Org, I remember seeing the thread but I have no idea where it was, it was a long time ago.

Sorry that's not much help, apart from the fact that this info has been around a long time and CA have never relented.

[magpie]

Going back a few years now I'm pretty sure it was said that since CA did not own the engine RTW and later MTW2 were built on but actually licensed it from another company, which would explain why CA couldn't give permission to alter the exec even if they wanted to.

The info about editing the exec was originally posted on the Org, I remember seeing the thread but I have no idea where it was, it was a long time ago.

Sorry that's not much help, apart from the fact that this info has been around a long time and CA have never relented.

Thanks for your info Halie, Maybe activision hold the rights or have a tie in with them, which would make sense? regards, mags.

[ray243]

Going back a few years now I'm pretty sure it was said that since CA did not own the engine RTW and later MTW2 were built on but actually licensed it from another company, which would explain why CA couldn't give permission to alter the exec even if they wanted to.

The info about editing the exec was originally posted on the Org, I remember seeing the thread but I have no idea where it was, it was a long time ago.

Sorry that's not much help, apart from the fact that this info has been around a long time and CA have never relented.

The thing is, going by the statement they gave to DVK, it seems that they are willingly to look the other way, if we are only modifying the unit limits, faction limits and etc.

Looking the other way and giving permission is two different things all together. Giving official permission is essentially an official policy made by CA, while looking the other way isn't giving people the permission to do so. Just that those people who did it won't be prosecuted, or asked by CA to shut down their mod project.

What the person was trying to change was, as I said above, the fact that when you recruit a unit with the legionary_unit attribute (ie a 1st Cohort), it gets a harcoded "Legio Blablabla" in its name, where Blablabla depends on the region it's recruited in: Legio Brittanica, Legio Felix, Legio whatever. The name of the legion is moddable, but the word "Legio" is not, it's hardcoded. That's what the guy wanted to change, he wanted to replace the word with another one.

What does he want to replace the word "Legio" with?

Thanks for your info Halie, Maybe activision hold the rights or have a tie in with them, which would make sense? regards, mags.

Could we contact Activision about that instead?

[Aradan]

What does he want to replace the word "Legio" with?

No idea, but it doesn't matter. It is a pretty strong indication that .exe modding won't be allowed any time soon.

[Dewy]

Seeing as I'm the or maybe one of the only game programmers here that isn't part of CA (don't think one of the programmers from CA has come to TWC) let me clear up a few things.

You cannot change the .exe to make the engine better than say ETW you could ofc change limits such as unit cap. Why doesn't CA let you change the .exe? Its simple it is illegal to modify the .exe, and letting people to do so will basically mean letting people to make cracks for the game. If it is true that they licensed the engine that is the bigger reason but I can't find any evidence of this.

A better question is, can we have the source code but than that will cut most of CAs revenue

Also if CA made the engine its their IP so activision doesn't hold rights

[ray243]

Seeing as I'm the or maybe one of the only game programmers here that isn't part of CA (don't think one of the programmers from CA has come to TWC) let me clear up a few things.

You cannot change the .exe to make the engine better than say ETW you could ofc change limits such as unit cap. Why doesn't CA let you change the .exe? Its simple it is illegal to modify the .exe, and letting people to do so will basically mean letting people to make cracks for the game. If it is true that they licensed the engine that is the bigger reason but I can't find any evidence of this.

A better question is, can we have the source code but than that will cut most of CAs revenue

Also if CA made the engine its their IP so activision doesn't hold rights

Cracks for the game already exist. So that argument isn't really valid. Moreover, we aren't creating a whole new .exe file for people to download. It is possible to write a program/installer that make changes to the .exe file.

Additionally, modding as it is, can be considered illegal. Even modifying the non .exe files are result in you being prosecuted. It's just that CA decides not to do so.

So your argument doesn't holds much water.

We don't need the source code. We just need to decide as a community, in regards to what can be tolerated by CA and what cannot be tolerated.

[Halie Satanus]

This is from the .com, I guess the relevent part is the section I've bolded, since editing the exec would require hacking the exec. It's probably worth noting that CA can chose to turn a blind eye if they wish, they can also send their legal stormtroopers to your house if they wish. No matter how we interpret what they say the law is rightly on their side. (even if their terms of use are poorly written)

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[magpie]

Thanks Haile, That is clear enough, Now the question is! would CA if they do own the full rights to the RTW game engine be willing to allow further exploration, for the purpose of non profit modding to the RTW game, with full credits being given to the owners of the copyright. One can only ask them. Also this may be a case where a group effort would be needed, rather than one individual?

[ray243]

This is from the .com, I guess the relevent part is the section I've bolded, since editing the exec would require hacking the exec. It's probably worth noting that CA can chose to turn a blind eye if they wish, they can also send their legal stormtroopers to your house if they wish. No matter how we interpret what they say the law is rightly on their side. (even if their terms of use are poorly written)

On the other hand, modding other is just as illegal as modifying the .exe .

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Did CA even gave EB the offical consent to develop their mod? If no, then modifying the .exe file would be on the same level as making changes to the strat_map.

Also, bear in mind that CA also stated clearly that they do not CONDONE the use of hacks for their products. When they mention this, I would view that they are willingly to turn a blind eye towards what the modders are doing.

Look, half of the modding projects would have closed down if we based everything on what CA is saying in the above checklist. Not every mod was given official written consent, nor did CA issue an official statement that everyone who buy their games can modify it.


These are strong reason why the community as it is should be allowed to modify the .exe to a minor extend.