Why is Venice so rich ? (and global economy a bit too rich too)

[cedric37]

Everytime i play a game in DLV6.2, it seems that Venice earns way more money that the other towns.
Look, northern italian cities including VENICE...


Then soutern cities:



Naples shows ridiculous income compared to Venice (3x less).

This may explain by the inland trade in Venice which is enormous; funnyly enough the sea trade is poor; although historically, VENICE should behave exactly as the opposite, i mean with nice sea trade and medium or poor land trade.

Cedric37.

EDIT: My leader alone does not explain a so big income, although he boost the city income from 15K to 18K:



Result without governor....



Details of the income:

[SonOfOdin]

WOW!
That's some income...

[cedric37]

Yes and i have found that by changing this set of values into the descr_settlement_mechanics.xml (save-game compatible, just have to relaunch M2TW).

<factor name="SIF_TRADE">
<pip_modifier value="0.8"/>
<castle_modifier value="0.2"/>
<city_modifier value="1.0"/>
</factor>

So by changing 0.8 into 0.3 the values are much more reasonable (Venice still gave me 9K under 2 positive events and Naples still gave me 4K; instead of 23K for Venice and 6K for Naples....).

I think it is a good thing to nerf a little bit the trade income, as today they really way too high IMHO.
I will address this in my mini-patch.

Cedric37.

[mp84]

Would that affect just Venice or the other factions as world?

Cause if it does affect the other factions cities it would make their income if it was low already, even lower.

[cedric37]

It will impact all the factions, so yes, you will have lower income overall. I would say that it is maybe preferable in this case to play without the field / settlement extra costs if you feel you will not have enough money (or of course, don't install the patch :p).

With the patch on, now a minor city relatively well developped will give you around 3-4K (which is common if you take vanilla m2tw or other mods like SS / Chivalry / TA / etc.). It does not change the income for towns & large towns pratically, and castles stay roughly the same. Only the cities with lots of trade income are really impacted. So this will not really bother factions with already poor trading.

EDIT: maybe i could set the modifier to 0.4 instead of 0.3 (or even 0.5), if you feel your income drops down too much. Please let me know.

[Kjertesvein]

So? Venice is one single gigantic trading hub, I don't see the problem... Venice won Istanbul, dominated the fourth crusade, their republic is one of the oldest and most secure in the world, etc. They, yes a city, simply was a superpower.

Second: If you must, is it not better to decrease the resources of Venice, then limit all the income of all factions?

Third, I'm playing Venice at 1203, and I only get 12 000 a turn with the Sovreign. Wierd.

-Wille

[cedric37]

So? Venice is one single gigantic trading hub, I don't see the problem... Venice won Istanbul, dominated the fourth crusade, their republic is one of the oldest and most secure in the world, etc. They, yes a city, simply was a superpower.

Second: If you must, is it not better to decrease the resources of Venice, then limit all the income of all factions?

Third, I'm playing Venice at 1203, and I only get 12 000 a turn with the Sovreign. Wierd.

-Wille

Not only Venice my friend, all cities are a bit too rich
Milan also earned 10K in my game, with Bologna and Florence not far behind and Venice for me reached 30K... Well if you find normal that the northern italian cities (called the big 5 if i remember well) all together give you 100K a turn then check the "normal" game or other mods; you will earn 100K a turn when your empire covers half of europe

The problem is that you just cannot spend all this money so it breaks completly the balance of the game. I know that you won't agree but here are the facts.


EDIT: in my current game as Sicily, 1220AD, VENICE gives me 12K (with my mini-patch) and Cordoba, Naples 6K so still is Venice twice as rich as the other cities; so for me it seems really correct.

[Kjertesvein]

The problem is that you just cannot spend all this money so it breaks completly the balance of the game. I know that you won't agree but here are the facts.

The ave and economy does no match my game in 1203, what scripts have you activated and mod regulations relevant to economy have you made prior to this game?

Not only Venice my friend, all cities are a bit too rich
Milan also earned 10K in my game, with Bologna and Florence not far behind and Venice for me reached 30K... Well if you find normal that the northern italian cities (called the big 5 if i remember well) all together give you 100K a turn then check the "normal" game or other mods; you will earn 100K a turn when your empire covers half of europe

Now, let's not be hasty…little…hobbit, there are others ways of mitigating…this…problem. For example…Regulating the inflation script.

EDIT: And, you would have to make this city - an island, if you want it to have more sea trade worthy.
On this map, the "land trade" is de facto a sea trade.

[cedric37]

Yes you are right, let discuss

But i am happy you see my point and i see yours, as earning 12K in 1203 with a city such as Venice is not so great... (seems normal i would say).
As scripts activated i would say none of the ones asked turn 1 (so no field costs, etc). Otherwise my game with Milan was made without any change in the campaign script at start (so i played the usual game except using no optional features from DLV).

Maybe that is the issue, the questions asked turn 1 seems to give you freedom (and yes they give you freedom), but once you selected for example "no settlements extra costs / no field costs" then your economy is way too rich (imagine i earned 200K/turn with Milan in 1250 with 57 regions and half of the regions are castles which either give nearly no money or even costs money).

So if you have an idea to change let say the SIF_TRADE only when players don't choose the extra settlement / field cost option, then it would be very nice

EDIT: oh yes, Venice should still returns more money from the sea than from the land IMO, which is the opposite today. To change this, i think the "sea trade" buildings needs maybe to add commercial fleet. If i compare (sorry to say this) with SS; in SS, Venice earns lots of money too compared to other cities but the trade income comes mainly from the sea, which seems more logical and historicaly accurate IMO (stop me if i am wrong but Venice was the most powerful sea-oriented nation of all mediteranea).

[Kjertesvein]

Maybe that is the issue, the questions asked turn 1 seems to give you freedom (and yes they give you freedom), but once you selected for example "no settlements extra costs / no field costs" then your economy is way too rich (imagine i earned 200K/turn with Milan in 1250 with 57 regions and half of the regions are castles which either give nearly no money or even costs money).

So if you have an idea to change let say the SIF_TRADE only when players don't choose the extra settlement / field cost option, then it would be very nice

Can't you just mod the existing Inflation Script ? That script caps all economy, regardless of other activated scripts, controlled regions and campaign. Since it's a new birth script, it's more open to change.

EDIT: oh yes, Venice should still returns more money from the sea than from the land IMO, which is the opposite today. To change this, i think the "sea trade" buildings needs maybe to add commercial fleet. If i compare (sorry to say this) with SS; in SS, Venice earns lots of money too compared to other cities but the trade income comes mainly from the sea, which seems more logical and historicaly accurate IMO (stop me if i am wrong but Venice was the most powerful sea-oriented nation of all mediteranea).

Yes, Venice was a gigantic trader from currently dominating the Black Sea trade and Aegean Sea trade, the main transport fleet for the Crusade and lets not forget the Latin Empire around Constantinople. After later loosing the black sea and Latin empier to the Genoese fleet in second half of the 13th century, they took a dominant controll of most of the maritime trade after the fourth crusade. However, it was not just sea trade, but also land trade from all the rich towns in northern Italy, creating a bottle-neck for all rich nobles, religiuos leaders, pilgrims, traders, etc. from all the Normans, HRE states, France, Flemish, Emeral isles, Hungary, Poland, and many other states on the alpine trade routes to the catholic center: Rome.


But when we focus on Sea trade, several issues comes rolling:

• This is also not considiring the Merchant's trade.
  
  • So that is not taken into count, but there can be added high-end Venetian merchants placed on many Venetian colonies of the map, as a symbol of Venetian trade supremacy in east middeteranean.
• Also, I recognize something with the Sea trade routes: First, my citys don't trade with castles, why? Second, the best commerce, like Crimea, Aegea isles and the Levant trade is simple to far away for Venice to reach.
  
  • So is there a file which can change who your city's trading port, can trade to?
• Seeing as Venice is only 1 city, inside a massive region, containing many other rich citys, creating huge trade. That's why it's pretty wrong to guess all sea trade is channeled via 1 single trading hub, however inhistorcial that position might be. You hardly has one harbour for the whole maritim trade, but rather many many small coastal citys all over the land. Contributing with with land trade.
  
  • If you understand this, then I think it's safe to say that this can be solved pretty with Shaxx's The Text Overhaul Mod. Just like fixing how we view family members as influencials, we simple has to find the adequate words for this display:

-Wille

[lordvoldmort]

totally ,really, of topic but this SS is taken from normal DLV 6.2 or DLV Europa ?
if its DLV 6.2 can u upload or attach the .TGA files that have those banners on top of the settlements?
if it isnt DLV 6,2 still share the TGA file that have them
thanks

[cedric37]

totally ,really, of topic but this SS is taken from normal DLV 6.2 or DLV Europa ?
if its DLV 6.2 can u upload or attach the .TGA files that have those banners on top of the settlements?
if it isnt DLV 6,2 still share the TGA file that have them
thanks

You will have to look after excellent "Tokus banners" micro-mod, somewhere into the sub-mod section;
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=225040

EDIT: oopps sorry double-posted

[lordvoldmort]

You will have to look after excellent "Tokus banners" micro-mod, somewhere into the sub-mod section;
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=225040

EDIT: oopps sorry double-posted

thanks got it

[Tokus*Maximus]

I've been playing epic Bzy game. Venice where doing extremely well but his High Popeliness decreed them heretics and two crusades have stripped them of their central capital Venice and another nearby settlement. They're holding out on Crete now with a settlement on the mainland here an' there. They used to hate me and try to take the Balklans off me but now they can't be nice enough now all the other western Christian factions after their (formerly) wealthy blood. It's tough at the trough!

[cedric37]

BTW, in your game (i assume you play DLV6.2 all scripts on, any sub-mods ?), how many income Constantinople give you on a normal turn (let say on summer, no economical events, no plague, no siege :p).

[cedric37]

Unfortunately, the inflation script does only impacts on field / settlements costs (and chances to loose money invested). For the sea trade i found some buildings unbalanced, that i adjusted a little bit to make it more profitable. I agree with you on Venice and the fact that this is only text and not representative of the reality. The fact is that Venice is richer than other cities, and i am happy with this

No really, i don't know how to handle this... If one answer "yes" to the field / settlement scripts, then the current economy is nice; but if you answer "no", then you have way too much money....

So basicaly, if one wish to play DLV with extra costs, he don't copy the descr_settlements_mechanisms.xml from my mini-patch. If he wants to play without this, he should copy this file.
Fortunately this is save-game compatible.