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  1. #1

    Default Julian and Vegetius

    There has been some discussion from a number of historians about both the
    formation of the legiones and their tactics within Vegetius. Most claim that he
    is talking about the legiones and their tactics prior to the reforms of
    Diocletian.
    However, this passage in Julian's Oratation II 'The Heroic Deeds Of
    Constantius', pg153, would appear to indicate that these very formations and
    tactics were in vogue during Constantius II reign-

    '...then and not before the Emperor drew up his cavalry separately on both
    wings.
    Of these troops some carry lances and are protected by cuirasses and helmets of
    wrought iron mail. They wear greaves that fit the legs closely, and knee-caps,
    and on their thighs the same sort of iron covering. They ride their horses
    exactly like statues, and need no shield. In the rear of these was posted a
    large body of the rest of the cavalry, who carried shields, whilst others fought
    on horse back with bows and arrows. Of the infantry the hoplites occupied the
    centre and supported the the cavalry on either wing. In their rear were the
    slingers and archers and all troops that shoot their missiles from the hand and
    have neither shield or cuirass. This, then was the disposition of our phalanx.'

    Compare with this in Vegetius-

    'DRAWING UP A LEGION IN ORDER OF BATTLE

    We shall exemplify the manner of drawing up an army in order of battle in the
    instance of one legion, which may serve for any number. The cavalry are posted
    on the wings. The infantry begin to form on a line with the :first cohort on the
    right. The second cohort draws up on the left of the first; the third occupies
    the center; the fourth is posted next; and the fifth closes the left flank. The
    ordinarii, the other officers and the soldiers of the first line, ranged before
    and round the ensigns, were called the principes. They were all heavy armed
    troops and had helmets, cuirasses, greaves, and shields. Their offensive weapons
    were large swords, called spathae, and smaller ones called semispathae together
    with five loaded javelins in the concavity of the shield, which they threw at
    the first charge. They had likewise two other javelins, the largest of which was
    composed of a staff five feet and a half long and a triangular head of iron nine
    inches long. This was formerly called the pilum, but now it is known by the name
    of spiculum. The soldiers were particularly exercised in the use of this weapon,
    because when thrown with force and skill it often penetrated the shields of the
    foot and the cuirasses of the horse. The other javelin was of smaller size; its
    triangular point was only five inches long and the staff three feet and one
    half. It was anciently called verriculum but now verutum.

    The first line, as I said before, was composed of the principes; the hastati
    formed the second and were armed in the same manner. In the second line the
    sixth cohort was posted on the right flank, with the seventh on its left; the
    eighth drew up in the center; the ninth was the next; and the tenth always
    closed the left flank. In the rear of these two lines were the ferentarii, light
    infantry and the troops armed with shields, loaded javelins, swords and common
    missile weapons, much in the same manner as our modern soldiers. This was also
    the post of the archers who had helmets, cuirasses, swords, bows and arrows; of
    the slingers who threw stones with the common sling or with the fustibalus; and
    of the tragularii who annoyed the enemy with arrows from the manubalistae or
    arcubalistae.

    In the rear of all the lines, the triarii, completely armed, were drawn up. They
    had shields, cuirasses, helmets, greaves, swords, daggers, loaded javelins, and
    two of the common missile weapons. They rested during the acnon on one knee, so
    that if the first lines were obliged to give way, they might be fresh when
    brought up to the charge, and thereby retrieve what was lost and recover the
    victory. All the ensigns though, of the infantry, wore cuirasses of a smaller
    sort and covered their helmets with the shaggy skins of beasts to make
    themselves appear more terrible to the enemy. But the centurions had complete
    cuirasses, shields, and helmets of iron, the crest of which, placed transversely
    thereon, were ornamented with silver that they might be more easily
    distinguished by their respective soldiers.

    The following disposition deserves the greatest attention. In the beginning of
    an engagement, the first and second lines remained immovable on their ground,
    and the trairii in their usual positions. The light-armed troops, composed as
    above mentioned, advanced in the front of the line, and attacked the enemy. If
    they could make them give way, they pursued them; but if they were repulsed by
    superior bravery or numbers, they retired behind their own heavy armed infantry,
    which appeared like a wall of iron and renewed the action, at first with their
    missile weapons, then sword in hand. If they broke the enemy they never pursued
    them, least they should break their ranks or throw the line into confusion, and
    lest the enemy, taking advantage of their disorder, should return to the attack
    and destroy them without difficulty. The pursuit therefore was entirely left to
    the light-armed troops and the cavalry. By these precautions and dispositions
    the legion was victorious without danger, or if the contrary happened, was
    preserved without any considerable loss, for as it is not calculated for
    pursuit, it is likewise not easily thrown into disorder.'

  2. #2

    Default Re: Julian and Vegetius

    I think one of our newer members will be interested in this thread...

  3. #3

    Default Re: Julian and Vegetius

    Quote Originally Posted by Valentinian Victor View Post
    I think one of our newer members will be interested in this thread...
    Me too! Thanks.

    I'm not that new though, I had the airfix roman fort with Britons and Romans back in the early 70's. Later on a friend of mine got into those lead figurines, but I thought the late Romans looked a lot more interesting and preferred them ever since.
    Last edited by wulfgar610; May 07, 2010 at 07:11 PM.

  4. #4
    Magister Militum Flavius Aetius's Avatar δούξ θρᾳκήσιου
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    Default Re: Julian and Vegetius

    Im interested but I'm not new...
    I think you mean lionheart... one of our VLTIMVS ROMANORVM reasearchers

  5. #5
    Magister Militum Flavius Aetius's Avatar δούξ θρᾳκήσιου
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    Default Re: Julian and Vegetius

    I know what your talking about... Made of lead? Must be made in china...

  6. #6

    Default Re: Julian and Vegetius

    Quote Originally Posted by Magistri Militum FlaviusAetius View Post
    I know what your talking about... Made of lead? Must be made in china...
    Mostly antimony or "printers lead", they originally had a small amount of real lead so they would be less brittle. But child health laws forced them to remove all the real lead from the process. Generally they were made in Britain which was the premier nation for period war games.

    25mm figures were thing for a while and then 18 and 15 mm became the thing. They'd meet in community centers and play on table tennis boards. The computer is so much easier although the old culture was more romantic.

    There's still die hards into the old culture around.

  7. #7
    julianus heraclius's Avatar The Philosopher King
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    Default Re: Julian and Vegetius

    Quote Originally Posted by wulfgar610 View Post
    Mostly antimony or "printers lead", they originally had a small amount of real lead so they would be less brittle. But child health laws forced them to remove all the real lead from the process. Generally they were made in Britain which was the premier nation for period war games.

    25mm figures were thing for a while and then 18 and 15 mm became the thing. They'd meet in community centers and play on table tennis boards. The computer is so much easier although the old culture was more romantic.

    There's still die hards into the old culture around.
    I remember those days. I cut my teeth on playing 25mm before moving on to 15mm. In fact I still have my 15mm Late Roman army.

    Avatar & Signature by Joar

  8. #8
    SeniorBatavianHorse's Avatar Tribunus Vacans
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    Default Re: Julian and Vegetius

    I began with 15mm War of the Roses armies and then went 'Ancient'. Nothing beats watching a Greek phalanx crawl across a large felt covered table into the teeth of a waiting line of legions and auxiliaries . . . Still, a bit off thread, perhaps!

  9. #9

    Default Re: Julian and Vegetius

    Quote Originally Posted by SeniorBatavianHorse View Post
    I began with 15mm War of the Roses armies and then went 'Ancient'. Nothing beats watching a Greek phalanx crawl across a large felt covered table into the teeth of a waiting line of legions and auxiliaries . . . Still, a bit off thread, perhaps!
    Start a new thread entitled 'Wargaming the Late Roman Period', I'd join in, I still play Ancients, have Late Roman, Goth, Sasanid and Hun armies. I use the DBMM ruleset.

    Adrian Goldsworthy, Phil Sabin and Simon Macdowell are all wargamers!

  10. #10

    Default Re: Julian and Vegetius

    Quote Originally Posted by Valentinian Victor View Post
    Start a new thread entitled 'Wargaming the Late Roman Period', I'd join in, I still play Ancients, have Late Roman, Goth, Sasanid and Hun armies. I use the DBMM ruleset.

    Adrian Goldsworthy, Phil Sabin and Simon Macdowell are all wargamers!
    Didn't Philip Sabin invent a set of wargaming rules a while ago?

  11. #11

    Default Re: Julian and Vegetius

    Quote Originally Posted by ray243 View Post
    Didn't Philip Sabin invent a set of wargaming rules a while ago?
    He did indeed, its called 'Lost Battles'.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Julian and Vegetius

    Quote Originally Posted by Valentinian Victor View Post
    The following disposition deserves the greatest attention. In the beginning of
    an engagement, the first and second lines remained immovable on their ground,
    and the trairii in their usual positions. The light-armed troops, composed as
    above mentioned, advanced in the front of the line, and attacked the enemy. If
    they could make them give way, they pursued them; but if they were repulsed by
    superior bravery or numbers, they retired behind their own heavy armed infantry,
    which appeared like a wall of iron and renewed the action, at first with their
    missile weapons, then sword in hand. If they broke the enemy they never pursued
    them, least they should break their ranks or throw the line into confusion, and
    lest the enemy, taking advantage of their disorder, should return to the attack
    and destroy them without difficulty. The pursuit therefore was entirely left to
    the light-armed troops and the cavalry. By these precautions and dispositions
    the legion was victorious without danger, or if the contrary happened, was
    preserved without any considerable loss, for as it is not calculated for
    pursuit, it is likewise not easily thrown into disorder.'
    this is interesting and a good way to fight battles in RTW too! I always put my heavy infantry on guard mode,having them roaming all over chasing routing pellasts or what not is a waste and dangerous if there are enemy reinforcements.
    Last edited by Kritic; May 08, 2010 at 05:16 PM.
    “Plunderers of the world, after they, laying everything waste, run out of land, they probe even the sea: if their enemy has wealth, they have greed; if he be poor, they are ambitious; neither East nor West has sated them; alone of mankind they covet poverty with the same passion as wealth. Robbery, butchery, rape they misname empire: they make a wasteland and call it peace” Tacitus

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