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    Farnan's Avatar Saviors of the Japanese
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    Default Obama will surge Afghanistan, and so will NATO

    Obama expects support for more Afghanistan troops

    By ANNE GEARAN (AP) – 9 hours ago

    WASHINGTON — President Barack Obama will announce his plan to bolster the war in Afghanistan in a speech Tuesday night from the U.S. Military Academy at West Point, his spokesman said, a surge that military officials say could top 30,000 troops.

    The president promised this week to "finish the job" begun eight years ago, and press secretary Robert Gibbs said Wednesday the announcement would include an exit strategy. But the surge in troops would be Obama's second since taking office, and liberal Democrats already are lining up against it, in part because of the also-surging cost — up to $75 billion a year.

    Gibbs said Obama's recent meetings with military advisers have often focused on how to train Afghanistan's police and army to secure and hold areas taken from the Taliban so that U.S. forces can leave. "We are not going to be there another eight or nine years," he said.

    Incompetence and corruption in the Afghan government have aided a rise in the Taliban's strength. The military strategy is expected to include specific dates that deployments could be slowed or stopped if necessary, a senior military official said. The official and others spoke on condition of anonymity because the decision was not final.

    Obama will be speaking to a war-weary American public. Polls show support for the war has dropped significantly since Obama took office, with a majority now saying both that they oppose the war and that it is not worth fighting.

    The president and his top military and national security advisers have held 10 meetings to discuss America's future steps in Afghanistan. The top general in Afghanistan, Stanley McChrystal, has asked the president for about 40,000 troops, arguing that a robust but temporary surge was the best way to end the war.

    Administration officials said Obama has not made a final decision about the number of troops he would approve. Military officials, speaking on condition of anonymity because they are not authorized to discuss the president's plans, said they expected the total to be between 32,000 and 35,000.

    On Tuesday, Obama predicted the American people will support his strategy once they understand the stakes.

    "I feel very confident that when the American people hear a clear rationale for what we're doing there and how we intend to achieve our goals, that they will be supportive," he said, speaking at a White House news conference with Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh.

    McChrystal has warned that the war effort could fail without a large troop infusion. Although he preferred a higher figure — about 40,000 — McChrystal is expected to testify before Congress next week that this lesser number still gives him enough.

    The expected increase would include at least three Army brigades and a single, larger Marine Corps contingent, the officials said.

    Among others likely to take part in congressional hearings are Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton, Defense Secretary Robert Gates, Joint Chiefs of Staff Chairman Adm. Mike Mullen and U.S. Ambassador to Afghanistan Karl Eikenberry. All were among about 20 officials and advisers participating in the president's final deliberations Monday night — one of the biggest groups gathered for these sessions.

    The administration plan will have a tough sell among some congressional Democrats, including Senate Armed Services Committee Chairman Carl Levin, D-Mich., who has questioned the value of adding forces and pointed to the war's rising cost.

    The Afghan war bill hit $43 billion annually this summer, with the addition of 21,000 forces Obama has already added to the fight this year.

    AP White House Correspondent Jennifer Loven and AP writer Charles Babington contributed to this report.
    http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/...op0tgD9C6NH9G0

    Gordon Brown paved the way today for the announcement next Tuesday of a large US troop surge in Afghanistan by saying he had received assurances from Nato countries that they would contribute an extra 5,000 troops.

    The assurances are significant because both Brown and Barack Obama have said they will not commit more of their own troops unless there are increases in other Nato troop numbers.

    There was some confusion in Nato circles as to the source of Brown's optimism that the number of troops could rise by 5,000, but the prime minister's spokesman said his assessment came after discussions with 10 coalition partners.

    In his letter to the Nato secretary general, Anders Fogh Rasmussen, the prime minister said he was optimistic that "a majority of these countries will indeed make available increased numbers of troops, and more police trainers and civilian support".

    He said the troop numbers would be in addition to his own offer of nearly 500 more troops. Brown did not name the countries, the number of troops or the mix between troops trained to fight and forces deployed to train the Afghan army.

    Brown said: "In addition to offering security, the troops must train and mentor the Afghan armed forces and police so that, over time, they can take responsibility for the security of their country."

    He also firmed up his plans for a conference on Afghanistan in January in the UK jointly with the UN. He has spoken of the possibility of a conference before, but his remarks suggest it will now go ahead.

    He said one aim of the conference would be to decide "when we move forward with district by district handover to Afghan control. Recent announcements by President Karzai of action against corruption are an essential part of this process."

    Brown is hoping the London conference will give him the opportunity to set a date by which British troops could be expected to leave Afghanistan so the issue can be defused before the general election. He is also hoping that Karzai has started to do more to prove he will deal with corruption in the next few years, including by allowing prosecutions to go ahead against specific former ministers.

    The prime minister's spokesman said Brown intended to make a commitment to root out corruption in the Kabul administration one of the main issues of the conference. It will also look at how to strengthen provincial power and break the cycle of poor co-ordination on aid and governance.

    Mullah Omar, the Taliban leader in Afghanistan, has ruled out talks with Karzai and called on Afghans to break off relations with his "stooge" administration. In a statement, he also insisted foreign troops were losing the war in Afghanistan.
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009...ps-afghanistan

    Looks like McChrystal will get his men. I say he has a year to use them and show success.
    “The nation that will insist upon drawing a broad line of demarcation between the fighting man and the thinking man is liable to find its fighting done by fools and its thinking by cowards.”

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  2. #2
    s.rwitt's Avatar Shamb Conspiracy Member
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    Default Re: Obama will surge Afghanistan, and so will NATO

    While this is by all means good news, I don't understand why Obama would send 34,000 instead of 40,000.

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    Farnan's Avatar Saviors of the Japanese
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    Default Re: Obama will surge Afghanistan, and so will NATO

    Quote Originally Posted by s.rwitt View Post
    While this is by all means good news, I don't understand why Obama would send 34,000 instead of 40,000.
    Maybe its just enough to show he is in charge.
    “The nation that will insist upon drawing a broad line of demarcation between the fighting man and the thinking man is liable to find its fighting done by fools and its thinking by cowards.”

    —Sir William Francis Butler

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    Darkhorse's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: Obama will surge Afghanistan, and so will NATO

    Quote Originally Posted by s.rwitt View Post
    While this is by all means good news, I don't understand why Obama would send 34,000 instead of 40,000.
    Its claimed 40,000 troops are needed. So 34000 US troops, plus 500 British, 5000 NATO and ~1000- 1900 Georgian troops have been/will be deployed which rather neatly comes to 40,000 - 41,000. Why send more than you need to.

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    Default Re: Obama will surge Afghanistan, and so will NATO

    Quote Originally Posted by s.rwitt View Post
    While this is by all means good news, I don't understand why Obama would send 34,000 instead of 40,000.
    The difference will come form other NATO members.
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkhorse View Post
    And I would presume Romania would increase their deployment as they have done in the past.
    Romania might increase it's force with 600 soldiers.
    Last edited by ShockBlast; November 26, 2009 at 08:40 AM.

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    Default Re: Obama will surge Afghanistan, and so will NATO

    Quote Originally Posted by ShockBlast View Post
    The difference will come form other NATO members.

    Romania might increase it's force with 600 soldiers.
    That would bring them up to ~1600 men. Aren't most like deployed in an area where only 400 people live or something silly? I know the Romanians are also deployed with the Aussies and from what I've heard they are doing a good job too.

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    Default Re: Obama will surge Afghanistan, and so will NATO

    Quote Originally Posted by Darkhorse View Post
    I know the Romanians are also deployed with the Aussies and from what I've heard they are doing a good job too.
    Why, thank you. We are doing a decent job in our little part of the Ghan. But that said, our Government should step up our contribution. Put our money where our mouth is, so to speak.
    Young lady, I am an expert on humans. Now pick a mouth, open it and say "brglgrglgrrr"!

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    ShockBlast's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Obama will surge Afghanistan, and so will NATO

    Quote Originally Posted by Darkhorse View Post
    That would bring them up to ~1600 men. Aren't most like deployed in an area where only 400 people live or something silly? I know the Romanians are also deployed with the Aussies and from what I've heard they are doing a good job too.
    Well i don't know were all the troops are deployed but i do know we have 400 soldiers in Kandahar and almost 500 in Zabul

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Zoidberg View Post
    Why, thank you. We are doing a decent job in our little part of the Ghan. But that said, our Government should step up our contribution. Put our money where our mouth is, so to speak.
    The rest of the EU must step up for a 21,5 million country we did a lot of stepping up.We also need better equipment.We should cut the number of soldiers even more,there isn't going to be any war.We should bring the number down from 281.000 to 200.000 and use the money for better equipment.

    For the peace missions they should buy the best,it's not like Romania will have more then 2000 max 3000 in peace missions.

    Personally i'm very pissed on the Romanian Government for buying Piranha IIIC APCs,we all yell that we must keep our war industry alive yet we don't buy our goods it's pathetic from the 3rd weapons exporter to a country that can't even produce APCs or better say a country that doesn't buy the weapons made by the national industry.The Saurs are very good,those sould have been the APCs that would replace Romania's aging APCs and buy some Boxers for peace missions,now those are the kings of APCs.

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    Default Re: Obama will surge Afghanistan, and so will NATO

    Quote Originally Posted by Future Filmmaker View Post
    We really don't need to be there another 10 years. We just need to keep surging the hell out of them and go onto mega offensive mode for a couple years. Blitzkreig!
    Noooh what a minute! ...You are joking.

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin N View Post
    And i like how were talking about winning over the populace of Astan, 1 second were being all friendly, next second bombing them to , yeh that really goes down well, all of them are uneducated and most of them fighting against us are in the taliban to get food and money for there family, the populace is against us whether out of necessity* or hatred, i wouldent be surprised if alot of them still think its the russians who have invaded thats how messed up there country is, its a lost cause trying to turn that country around.
    Then we manipulates the ones who are, 'out of necessity'. Afghan politics will mitigate the rest. After 10 year with economic aid, democracy comes.

    -Wille
    Thorolf was thus armed. Then Thorolf became so furious that he cast his shield on his back, and, grasping his halberd with both hands, bounded forward dealing cut and thrust on either side. Men sprang away from him both ways, but he slew many. Thus he cleared the way forward to earl Hring's standard, and then nothing could stop him. He slew the man who bore the earl's standard, and cut down the standard-pole. After that he lunged with his halberd at the earl's breast, driving it right through mail and body, so that it came out at the shoulders; and he lifted him up on the halberd over his head, and planted the butt-end in the ground. There on the weapon the earl breathed out his life in sight of all, both friends and foes. [...] 53, Egil's Saga
    I must tell you here of some amusing tricks the Comte d'Eu played on us. I had made a sort of house for myself in which my knights and I used to eat, sitting so as to get the light from the door, which, as it happened, faced the Comte d'Eu's quarters. The count, who was a very ingenious fellow, had rigged up a miniature ballistic machine with which he could throw stones into my tent. He would watch us as we were having our meal, adjust his machine to suit the length of our table, and then let fly at us, breaking our pots and glasses.
    - The pranks played on the knight Jean de Joinville, 1249, 7th crusade.













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    Default Re: Obama will surge Afghanistan, and so will NATO

    Quote Originally Posted by Sivilombudsmannen View Post
    Noooh what a minute! ...You are joking.


    Then we manipulates the ones who are, 'out of necessity'. Afghan politics will mitigate the rest. After 10 year with economic aid, democracy comes.

    -Wille
    Building a democratic Afghanistan is not our mission. Our mission is drive out the haven for terrorism.

    The Afghans won't accept a government they don't want.
    Heir to Noble Savage in the Imperial House of Wilpuri

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    Default Re: Obama will surge Afghanistan, and so will NATO

    Quote Originally Posted by Future Filmmaker View Post
    Building a democratic Afghanistan is not our mission. Our mission is drive out the haven for terrorism.
    Afghanistan (government) will accept it weather they like it or not. They don't really have much say on that, their need for better living condition do.

    -Wille
    Thorolf was thus armed. Then Thorolf became so furious that he cast his shield on his back, and, grasping his halberd with both hands, bounded forward dealing cut and thrust on either side. Men sprang away from him both ways, but he slew many. Thus he cleared the way forward to earl Hring's standard, and then nothing could stop him. He slew the man who bore the earl's standard, and cut down the standard-pole. After that he lunged with his halberd at the earl's breast, driving it right through mail and body, so that it came out at the shoulders; and he lifted him up on the halberd over his head, and planted the butt-end in the ground. There on the weapon the earl breathed out his life in sight of all, both friends and foes. [...] 53, Egil's Saga
    I must tell you here of some amusing tricks the Comte d'Eu played on us. I had made a sort of house for myself in which my knights and I used to eat, sitting so as to get the light from the door, which, as it happened, faced the Comte d'Eu's quarters. The count, who was a very ingenious fellow, had rigged up a miniature ballistic machine with which he could throw stones into my tent. He would watch us as we were having our meal, adjust his machine to suit the length of our table, and then let fly at us, breaking our pots and glasses.
    - The pranks played on the knight Jean de Joinville, 1249, 7th crusade.













    http://imgur.com/a/DMm19
    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    This is the only forum I visit with any sort of frequency and I'm glad it has provided a home for RTR since its own forum went down in 2007. Hopefully my donation along with others from TWC users will help get the site back to its speedy heyday, which will certainly aid us in our endeavor to produce a full conversion mod Rome2.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Obama will surge Afghanistan, and so will NATO

    Well at least Obama made a decision. I would of hoped for a withdraw, but since that's pretty much dried up we shall see what happens

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    s.rwitt's Avatar Shamb Conspiracy Member
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    Default Re: Obama will surge Afghanistan, and so will NATO

    I would of hoped for a withdraw
    That would be a disaster.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Obama will surge Afghanistan, and so will NATO

    Quote Originally Posted by s.rwitt View Post
    That would be a disaster.
    If it was done properly, not really. Or a fighting withdraw like the Kesselring did in Italy during WW2.

    It's possible.

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    Default Re: Obama will surge Afghanistan, and so will NATO

    This is great news indeed. However, that bit about stepping up attempts to address the corruption problem in Afghanistan is a pretty unlickly scenario. I especially liked it when it mentioned Karzai's pledge on that count. Pure comic genius.

    Take it easy,

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    Default Re: Obama will surge Afghanistan, and so will NATO

    Quote Originally Posted by Ćnema View Post
    If it was done properly, not really. Or a fighting withdraw like the Kesselring did in Italy during WW2.

    It's possible.
    I really really hate to admit it to you, but S.rwitt is right on this paticular issue. Withdraw would be simply be catastrphic! Not only short turm, but also long turm. It would become a rouge state like NA, and possible cooperating with other rouge states. The gigantic western loans would stop, and the governmental institution would brake.

    I personally hated the reason for both wars, but the hands are tied, and right now; I want to stay there for atleast 10 years. 10 years with officers stationed in villages, training and protecting each village, while at the same time, giving the population direct economic aid.

    The only thing which would jeopardice the project, is western forces influencing in how afghans solve afghan progblems. (inkl. flashing western solidarity, feminism, democracy advocats, etc.)

    -Wille
    Thorolf was thus armed. Then Thorolf became so furious that he cast his shield on his back, and, grasping his halberd with both hands, bounded forward dealing cut and thrust on either side. Men sprang away from him both ways, but he slew many. Thus he cleared the way forward to earl Hring's standard, and then nothing could stop him. He slew the man who bore the earl's standard, and cut down the standard-pole. After that he lunged with his halberd at the earl's breast, driving it right through mail and body, so that it came out at the shoulders; and he lifted him up on the halberd over his head, and planted the butt-end in the ground. There on the weapon the earl breathed out his life in sight of all, both friends and foes. [...] 53, Egil's Saga
    I must tell you here of some amusing tricks the Comte d'Eu played on us. I had made a sort of house for myself in which my knights and I used to eat, sitting so as to get the light from the door, which, as it happened, faced the Comte d'Eu's quarters. The count, who was a very ingenious fellow, had rigged up a miniature ballistic machine with which he could throw stones into my tent. He would watch us as we were having our meal, adjust his machine to suit the length of our table, and then let fly at us, breaking our pots and glasses.
    - The pranks played on the knight Jean de Joinville, 1249, 7th crusade.













    http://imgur.com/a/DMm19
    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    This is the only forum I visit with any sort of frequency and I'm glad it has provided a home for RTR since its own forum went down in 2007. Hopefully my donation along with others from TWC users will help get the site back to its speedy heyday, which will certainly aid us in our endeavor to produce a full conversion mod Rome2.

  17. #17
    wilpuri's Avatar It Gets Worse.
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    Default Re: Obama will surge Afghanistan, and so will NATO

    Quote Originally Posted by s.rwitt View Post
    That would be a disaster.
    For who?

    I hope Finland does not send any troops, though its likely because our politicians are spineless unprincipled scum.
    The common culture of a tribe is a sign of its inner cohesion. But tribes are vanishing from the modern world, as are all forms of traditional society. Customs, practices, festivals, rituals and beliefs have acquired a flut and half-hearted quality which reflects our nomadic and rootless existence, predicated as we are on the global air-waves.

    ROGER SCRUTON, Modern Culture

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    Darkhorse's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: Obama will surge Afghanistan, and so will NATO

    Quote Originally Posted by wilpuri View Post
    For who?

    I hope Finland does not send any troops, though its likely because our politicians are spineless unprincipled scum.
    You have about 200 deployed already.

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    wilpuri's Avatar It Gets Worse.
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    Default Re: Obama will surge Afghanistan, and so will NATO

    Quote Originally Posted by Darkhorse View Post
    You have about 200 deployed already.
    We pulled out most troops only a month ago or so, as their rotation ended.
    The common culture of a tribe is a sign of its inner cohesion. But tribes are vanishing from the modern world, as are all forms of traditional society. Customs, practices, festivals, rituals and beliefs have acquired a flut and half-hearted quality which reflects our nomadic and rootless existence, predicated as we are on the global air-waves.

    ROGER SCRUTON, Modern Culture

  20. #20
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    Default Re: Obama will surge Afghanistan, and so will NATO

    better hand back that nobel peace prize, mr president

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