Suppanut's RS2 traits workshop

[Suppanut]

OK. I just now have to carry out on RS2 traits that Calvin had left off and just study on what the core engine of trait that already left in detail. I see many promising in ideas as well as flawed in triggers.

But before I do further work to fulfill what Calvin left off, I need to know the scope of the work as well as material and data to supply me for this work. As well as what parts of system you want me to finish off or what that other will do them.

I'm very new to RS team so I need a lot of data and guide on concepts of your mod.

From now on, this thread will be my workshop in RS. I will report progress and problem here and please post here all that you want me to know as well as criticism.

[tone]

OK.....key things:

1) Roman leadership system as started by Calvin http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=208881

2) Rebellion script - this ties into the trait of becoming a dictator for life/Caesar...the idea here was to have possibly a couple of different rebellions tied to different conditions (generally having a certain number of key regions). Mihai has been working on the script for this....and has actually put some random elements into the script itself to make things different each time. The idea is that if you're playing the Roman campaign and reach a certain stage, you potentially lose Rome and a number of regions and have a whole host of armies to fight including a legion of Praetorians stationed round Rome.
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/attac...8&d=1258497287


3) Calvin was also reworking the normal traits system, removing some redundant / ridiculous ones and adding some improved characteristics....
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=277411
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=262716

4) Ideally we would have a leadership system for each of the main cultures - keravnos and mulattothrasher have done some ideas:

hellenistic: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=230870
barbarian: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=228382
carthaginian: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=233013


there's another thread here: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=211882

and I'm pretty sure there was something about a Parthian noble house system that Gez put together.

5) The basics of the Armenian noble house system have been put together I think, and ideas put forward for a Parthian one.


A thread called "every other leadership system" http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=221716


I'm just putting here everything I know that was thought about / suggested / started. I'm not saying you need to do it all!

[Suppanut]

OK. now I start working on RS's roman leadership. at least with description that Calvin left off in file made me work with it so easier but I still have the term that I don't understand.

- The word "joined army" and "joined civil career", I'm now understand civil career on its basic but for "army", what is the thing that start military career? battle experience? or just stay outside settlement?

- I understand that cursus honorum office and post-office will fallow character along, but what in military? will those Centurion, Tribune, Legatus fallow character even when they not in army or just sit around in settlement? or will disappear hidden when they not on field career?

- Do you want character in plebeian class to get demotion if have poor performance in career?

- Do civil and military career exclude each others?

- Does "Tribunus" permanent on character until they get promote or it will last as long as they are command army only? Does it has term of election or not? Does it able to exist along with other offices in Cursus Honourum or not?

[tone]

The word "joined army" and "joined civil career", I'm now understand civil career on its basic but for "army", what is the thing that start military career? battle experience? or just stay outside settlement?

Not sure about this - it may be in Calvin's thread somewhere or else it may be that the plan was for it to happen just if they stay outside a settlement.

Do civil and military career exclude each others?

My understanding is yes, they should exclude each other

Do you want character in plebeian class to get demotion if have poor performance in career?

sounds like a good idea - more likely to have happened in real life without any money to keep him in power

[dvk901]

- The word "joined army" and "joined civil career", I'm now understand civil career on its basic but for "army", what is the thing that start military career? battle experience? or just stay outside settlement?

My understanding from our conversations about this was that 'joining an army' was to be when a General was made the General of an army in the field.
Likewise, 'joined civil career' would be being made the Governor of a city. Obviously, both would be 'triggered' by a certain amount of turns left there, awarded commendations\bonuses based on that career, and yes, they would be mutually exclusive.

Part of the 'fun idea' of this was to make it so that 'grooming' a character for a military or civil career had some meaning, and that the consequences of mixing the careers would be detrimental to your economy or military in some way....ie, a great Governor would not be a great General, and vica-versa.

[Suppanut]

I could made tribunus, legatus and legatus legionaris go hidden when in unbesieged settlements. But for lower plebeian rank, do they need to go hidden under same condition as well? or they could take it brag around in settlement?

How many tribunus of plebeian hold office at the same time?

Other point of concern, There is no way to limit number of people to hold the traits each times. As Queastor and Tribunus during late republic are so numerous so I think that it no need to attempt to limit its holders, but for all from Aedile or higher have historically limited in numbers. What method do we use to prevent aedile or consul or Censor from spamming during late game when your characters are load and load?
- restrict condition for them?
- very rare chance which really need lucky stroke to get them?
- Condition varied and harder as roman has more settlements or more characters in family tree?


How many turns per year in RS2?

I would say that I may need to ask your team a lot in the future as I never touch this mod until recently and I never play and mod for 2 years now except test my work and my PC not play RS smoothly enough to get idea on anything(all data I know about your mod are came from reading codes and files). So I need someone who could help me in describe roman history and game concept that I didn't know.

[dvk901]

I could made tribunus, legatus and legatus legionaris go hidden when in unbesieged settlements. But for lower plebeian rank, do they need to go hidden under same condition as well? or they could take it brag around in settlement?

How many tribunus of plebeian hold office at the same time?

Other point of concern, There is no way to limit number of people to hold the traits each times. As Queastor and Tribunus during late republic are so numerous so I think that it no need to attempt to limit its holders, but for all from Aedile or higher have historically limited in numbers. What method do we use to prevent aedile or consul or Censor from spamming during late game when your characters are load and load?
- restrict condition for them?
- very rare chance which really need lucky stroke to get them?
- Condition varied and harder as roman has more settlements or more characters in family tree?


How many turns per year in RS2?

I would say that I may need to ask your team a lot in the future as I never touch this mod until recently and I never play and mod for 2 years now except test my work and my PC not play RS smoothly enough to get idea on anything(all data I know about your mod are came from reading codes and files). So I need someone who could help me in describe roman history and game concept that I didn't know.

For Aedile and higher offices you could use the 'praetorian_training' building (or 'castra_preatoria') as a condition for getting those offices. That would limit them a great deal, as you would ONLY get that office if your General was in Rome, and that building existed....(which would only be after the 'Imperial Reforms'.)

For Tribunes:

tribune, in ancient Rome, one of various officers. The history of the office of tribune is closely associated with the struggle of the plebs against the patrician class to achieve a more equitable position in the state. From c.508 B.C. the military tribunes (tribuni militum) were the senior officers of the legions, elected by the people and with the rank of magistrate; a plebeian could hold the position. The office of military tribune with the power of consul (tribuni militum consulari potestate) was established in 444 B.C. The office meant that certain of the military tribunes were invested with the political power of the consul. Although military tribunes were abolished (367 B.C.), the office of tribune of the plebs (tribuni plebis) designed to protect plebeian rights, especially against abuse by magistrates, had been formed (493 B.C.). The original number of such tribunes is uncertain, but by 449 B.C. there were 10. These tribunes were plebeians elected by an assembly of plebs. The power of the tribune derived from two basic prerogatives, the right of the tribune to inflict punishment upon a magistrate who disregarded either his injunction or the inviolability (sacrosanctitas) of the tribune's person. Gradually the tribune gained the intercessio or the right to veto a decision of a magistrate—which in effect was a veto over any official act of administration—and the right to prosecute corrupt magistrates before a public body. He further acquired (3d cent. B.C.) the power to attend and convene the senate and to lay before it matters for consideration. As the plebeians came to occupy more and more public offices, the tribune became less the champion of a class and more the representative of the individual over the state. With the reforms of the Gracchi in the late 2d cent. B.C., the office of tribune acquired wider significance, but later Sulla, combating these reforms, tried to remove the tribuneship as a factor in Roman government. Pompey restored the tribunes to their old power. Under the empire the tribuneship was held by the emperors. This gave to the emperors few powers that they did not otherwise possess, but the tradition of the office as a defender of popular rights and its inviolability was useful to them.

From what I glean this 'office' could either be 'public' or military, and as you say were common, so any General could get these.

legatus and legatus legionaris are Roman army Generals:

A legatus (often anglicized as legate) was a general in the Roman army, equivalent to a modern general officer. Being of senatorial rank, his immediate superior was the dux, and he outranked all military tribunes. In order to command an army independently of the dux or provincial governor, legates were required to be of praetorian rank or higher; a legate could be invested with propraetorian imperium (legatus propraetore) in his own right. Legates received large shares of the army's booty at the end of a campaign, which made the position a lucrative one, so it could often attract even distinguished consuls (e.g., the consul Lucius Julius Caesar volunteered late in the Gallic War as a legate under his first cousin once removed, Gaius Julius Caesar).

The men who filled the office of Legate were drawn from among the senatorial class of Rome. There were two main positions; the legatus legionis was an ex-praetor given command of one of Rome's elite legions[1], while the legatus propraetor was an ex-consul, who was given the governorship of a Roman province with the magisterial powers of a praetor, which in some cases gave him command of four or more legions.

This rank was also the overall Legionary commander. This post was generally appointed by the emperor. The person chosen for this rank was a former Tribune and held command for 3 or 4 years, although he could serve for a much longer period. In a province with only one legion, the Legatus was also the provincial governor, but in provinces with multiple legions, each legion had a Legatus and the provincial governor (who was separate from the legions) had overall command of them all.

.......one the Governor office, the other the General of a Legion as the name suggests. Obviously, it is very confusing the way the Romans assigned offices, so I would 'simplify it' by allowing a character who sits in a city as the governor to gain 'legatus propraetor', and only a field general commanding an army full time to gain 'legatus legionis'. I don't know if that can be done, but that's a simple way that it should be.

Basically, Rome would've been the 'center' for all the higher offices anyway, so it makes sense to limit them by using buildings that are only in Rome. During the Republic, it was the Senate who dished out these offices, and after, the Senate could 'offer', but in the end the Emperor decided who got what. From a role-playing' perspective, I think it would be cool to mirror this somehow in RS2.

I hope that helps?

[tone]

Good questions.....hopefully someone that knows some Roman history can help here....please.

I could made tribunus, legatus and legatus legionaris go hidden when in unbesieged settlements. But for lower plebeian rank, do they need to go hidden under same condition as well? or they could take it brag around in settlement?

That's an idea....I wonder how well that would role play?

How many tribunus of plebeian hold office at the same time?

I'm not sure - should we limit this?

Other point of concern, There is no way to limit number of people to hold the traits each times. As Queastor and Tribunus during late republic are so numerous so I think that it no need to attempt to limit its holders, but for all from Aedile or higher have historically limited in numbers. What method do we use to prevent aedile or consul or Censor from spamming during late game when your characters are load and load?
- restrict condition for them?
- very rare chance which really need lucky stroke to get them?
- Condition varied and harder as roman has more settlements or more characters in family tree?

It probably ought to become a bit harder as time goes by.

How many turns per year in RS2?

2 turns

Hopefully DVK can answer some of this as it is big picture stuff that needs some knowledge of Roman history. Please feel free to contribute anyone else that knows more than I do.

[Suppanut]

Thanks, this help me a lot.

I promise that you will able to test roman leadership next monday.

[ray243]

The thing I don't get it is, how are we going to distinguish the difference between the command structure in the late Republic era and the command structure in the imperial era.

For one, the position of the legate being in charge of one legion isn't something that was present during the Punic wars.

Is there any way we could simulate those changes? Like make certain office available only after someone became the emperor?

[dvk901]

Many people are under the impression that Rome's leadership offices changed a great deal after Augustus became Emperor. That isn't really true. What changed was that the Senate was in full control (at least hypothetically) during the Republican era, whereas after and during the reign of Augustus it was the Emperor who had the final say in all of this. He might approve what the Senate proposed, he might not. He might make appointments without consulting them at all. The offices themselves remained as they were for many centuries, not changing until the later times of the Empire. So there is really no reason to differentiate between 'Republic' and 'Empire' in terms of these offices, because they endured a long time beyond the time frame we cover in RS2......it was just WHO had the power to grant them that changed.

Augustus, in fact, made a great effort to preserve as much of the 'Republic', at least nominally, as possible.

[ray243]

Many people are under the impression that Rome's leadership offices changed a great deal after Augustus became Emperor. That isn't really true. What changed was that the Senate was in full control (at least hypothetically) during the Republican era, whereas after and during the reign of Augustus it was the Emperor who had the final say in all of this. He might approve what the Senate proposed, he might not. He might make appointments without consulting them at all. The offices themselves remained as they were for many centuries, not changing until the later times of the Empire. So there is really no reason to differentiate between 'Republic' and 'Empire' in terms of these offices, because they endured a long time beyond the time frame we cover in RS2......it was just WHO had the power to grant them that changed.

Augustus, in fact, made a great effort to preserve as much of the 'Republic', at least nominally, as possible.

I mean sure, the various civilian office remains the same. However, I was aware that the military rank system did change after Augustus. He was a great reformer in regards to the Roman Army. I'll dig up my books and see what I can find.

Also, I wasn't aware that the legate was an office during the era of Hannibal and Scipo. I thought that the office appeared at a much later stage? It was present in the late Republic era if I recall things correctly.

Was the office created after the Marian reforms?

[dvk901]

The office of Legatus was around for who knows how many centuries....certainly during and before the 2nd Punic War. The word simply means 'bird'....so there is no great significance to it. The original 'Legatus' were senators (military), or ex-counsuls (government)....and there were even diplomatic Legatus. I'm assuming from the Latin that the word implies 'watchfulness'....like a bird watching over everything from an overview position. As far as I know, it goes back into Roman antiquity..IOW, who knows how far back.

[ray243]

The office of Legatus was around for who knows how many centuries....certainly during and before the 2nd Punic War. The word simply means 'bird'....so there is no great significance to it. The original 'Legatus' were senators (military), or ex-counsuls (government)....and there were even diplomatic Legatus. I'm assuming from the Latin that the word implies 'watchfulness'....like a bird watching over everything from an overview position. As far as I know, it goes back into Roman antiquity..IOW, who knows how far back.

Ah ok, my mistake.

[dvk901]

Suppanut, another thing that needs to be addressed that Calvin knew about is the issue of Nomad Generals and movement. The Nomads cannot build roads (as they historically did not at this time anyway), and I suspect this affects their performance in movement allowance and trade. Could something be done for Nomad characters to specifically address this? Additional movement bonuses? I had asked for this anyway because of the vast distances in their territories.

[Suppanut]

OK. I will give nomad their movement bonus.

[dvk901]

OK. I will give nomad their movement bonus.

And a big thank you from me also.

[tone]

Thanks!!

[Keravnos]

On the process of changing ISPs and making my system work.

Will update when I have a working line. Right now I am posting from a friend.

[Suppanut]

Hmm. At last now I able to find time to resume working again. As my knowledge about rome is limit, so it not as easy as I thought

I have some more question to ask.

What is the different between "Senator" and "Senatorial class"? How they function? And How to become senator in Rome? And are "senator" and "senatorial" the requirement for play part in any kind of civil politic?