River Ports

[TheBromgrev]

Something that's always bugged me about the Total War games in general was the lack of river trade. Many of the largest and oldest cities in the world are built on rivers (London, Paris, Cairo, Baghdad, just to name a few). The rivers not only provide fresh water, but sanitation and increased access to trade (faster and cheaper to float something down a river than have something carry it on land). Most people already know that, yet there's no support in the game for river trade.

The latest RR/RC compilation for Stainless Steel includes river ports for select regions through the use of a hidden resource. The normal port icon is used as the building card, and there are two levels of the building. The first level gives a trade bonus and a 0.5% happiness growth bonus (the same type 1st tier brothels and cultural buildings give), while the 2nd increase the growth bonus to 1% as well as the trade bonus. You cannot see the river port on the campaign map.

The building is already done and added to KK's other mod (not to mention the same person in charge of RR/RC for this mod added the building), so it should be a simple copy/paste into the relevant scripts.

In The Hobbit, the trade between Dorwinion and Thranduil's Palace was conducted on the river. Wine was shipped up the river, and the empty barrels were tossed into it to float back to Dorwinion. I'd think regions around the Anduin would conduct trade with each other as well.

What do you guys think? I'd personally prefer a version with a health bonus instead of a happiness growth bonus, to reflect the fact that people can simply throw waste into the river.

[Kawee]

How about we make the rivers wider, so the game reads them as seas and there can actually be trade?

[tristram1]

I think Chivalry II handled the river ports really well. I'd say that river ports are an excellent idea.

[Mega Tortas de Bodemloze]

Nice concept, and I'd go with the health bonus to......+Rep

[Kovas]

I would like to see river ports with trade bonus, so I voted for "Yes, with some other bonus".

[Muffer Nl]

Trade and health bonus.

[jinjo]

river ports with trade bonus

[Athalwulf]

0 people have voted no so far.

Of course now that I've posted this someone will vote no.

[toluas]

Voted yes, with health bonus.

[Guidrion]

Voted yes with some other bonus. That's a feature I always liked.

[Beorn]

Votes yes, with other bonuses.

To name a few regions wit river trade, Esgaroth, Thranduil's Halls, Tharbad, Osgiliath and the other settlements of Dale across river Celduin....

I would go a for bonuses like bonus in trade, health, growth and farm production.

[Outlawstar15a2]

Actually to be honest, I think this is a great idea. Though if it was implemented I'd like to see the rivers made wider in order to be able to see it as river trade otherwise I'll see it on my settlement summary screen and I won't know where all the extra money is coming from. Otherwise you'll have the bonus income but it'll be behind the scenes.

[TheBromgrev]

Thanks for the responses. The original idea was basically to copy what SS uses, which is a building that uses the port icon, but is not visible on the campaign map. If you widen the rivers, how would you cross them? The reason Cair Andros and North Ithilien (forgot the settlement's name) don't have sea ports is due to the bridge that connects Osgiliath. The bridge is technically a river, so the sea trade lanes can't go through it.

In SS, the trade bonus is a land-trade bonus, so you won't see it, and the settlement with the river port can only trade with its neighbors (a limitation of the game engine). Only way to see what exactly the bonus is, and to connect to other regions that share the river is to widen it. Although, widening the river causes other problems.

I noticed a lot of people voted for "some other bonus". What do you guys have in mind?

[Jean=A=Luc]

Just trade would be enough. I don't see why a river port would give additional health, growth or happiness. What's so special about a river port as opposed to a sea/ocean port?

Maybe a 2nd lever river port could contain a fishing warf that adds a farming bonus. But the same could be applied to normal ports as well.

[toluas]

Just trade would be enough. I don't see why a river port would give additional health, growth or happiness. What's so special about a river port as opposed to a sea/ocean port?

My reasoning was that a settlement that justifies a river port or at least one that's situated at a large enough river will get a health bonus, because the river functions as a sewage system. Small rivers most of the times do not suffice, because they often flow too slowly to carry away the waste.
And throwing the garbage in a seaside port will not relieve you of your waste, it will just stay inside your harbor and cause a much larger problem in the foreseeable future. That's why nowadays ships dump their waste at sea...

[TheBromgrev]

The health bonus (or happiness, or farming, or whatever) reflects a constant supply of fresh water, as opposed to waiting for rain or digging a well. It also reflects that people will throw away any human/animal waste into the river. For small settlements this wasn't a big problem, but for large cities it was and still is. I encourage everyone to read about the Great Stink of 1858. Perhaps, if the ports have more than 2 levels, the largest levels would provide a growth penalty of some kind?

I interpret sea port fishing as being represented by a fish resource, which contributes to growth bonuses due to trade, if the trade is high enough.

[Jean=A=Luc]

Can't people drink water and drop waste into the river without a port? All they need to do is walk to the shore (which is what they pretty much did). A port doesn't purify water (quite the contrary) nor is it a well, aquaduct or a sewage system. Not on its own anyway.

Unless you mean for the port to represent potential bonuses coming from the river itself.

[TheBromgrev]

Unless you mean for the port to represent potential bonuses coming from the river itself.

That's what I meant, I just wasn't very clear. Others could interpret any potential bonuses differently, but my interpretation is that the port building reflects a river that's suitable for trade, not something that dries up every summer. A river that dries up, or couldn't allow a barge or boat to navigate it would not be a candidate for a river port. An exception would be the Anduin. Yes, the river does have a waterfall, but what's keeping the regions north of the falls from trading with each other (aside from population)?

As for a list of potential regions, these regions have support in the books, or we can reasonably assume river trade occurred between these regions, or a river port existed:
Dorwinion, Thranduil's Halls
Caras Galadhon
all of Dale's starting settlements (if trade occurred between the elves and Dorwinion, why not the settlements in-between as well?)

These I'm not sure about, but make sense to me:
Erebor, Amon Gastal, Rhosgobel, Henneth Annun, and Tirith Anduin

And these are a stretch, based on their positions on the map and my understanding of the area:
Thorin's Halls, Rhomen, Annuminas, Brockenborings, and Michel Delving.

In the case of the dwarven settlements, the dwarves wouldn't necessarily man the boats/barges themselves, but could hire men to do the job.

[Hermes Trismegistos]

As for a list of potential regions, these regions have support in the books, or we can reasonably assume river trade occurred between these regions, or a river port existed:
Dorwinion, Thranduil's Halls
Caras Galadhon
all of Dale's starting settlements (if trade occurred between the elves and Dorwinion, why not the settlements in-between as well?)

Of course the men of Dale and Esgaroth were engaged in the river trade. I'm pretty sure they did all the transportation between Dorwinion and Esgaroth for the elves, but surely for themselves as well - and with the rebuilding of Dale and Erebror there will have entered some dwaren goods in the circle as well.

Here a few quotations freom the end of the ,Hobbit': "And Lake-town was refounded and was more prosperous than ever, and much wealth went up and down the Running River and there was friendship in those parts between elves and dwarves and men [...]
They are making sonds which say that in his day the rivers run with gold."

And these passages are referring exactly to the starting time of TATW - shortly after the events of the ,Hobbit'.

[Point Blank]

Easy enough to add to next RR/RC update, if someone can provide a list of settlements that should be eligible to have them.