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  1. #1

    Default AP:Muslim countries seek blasphemy ban

    GENEVA — Four years after cartoons of the prophet Muhammad set off violent protests across the Muslim world, Islamic nations are mounting a campaign for an international treaty to protect religious symbols and beliefs from mockery — essentially a ban on blasphemy that would put them on a collision course with free speech laws in the West.

    Documents obtained by The Associated Press show that Algeria and Pakistan have taken the lead in lobbying to eventually bring the proposal to a vote in the U.N. General Assembly.

    If ratified in countries that enshrine freedom of expression as a fundamental right, such a treaty would require them to limit free speech if it risks seriously offending religious believers. The process, though, will take years and no showdown is imminent.

    The proposal faces stiff resistance from Western countries, including the United States, which in the past has brushed aside other U.N. treaties, such as one on the protection of migrant workers.

    Experts say the bid stands some chance of eventual success if Muslim countries persist. And whatever the outcome, the campaign risks reigniting tensions between Muslims and the West that President Barack Obama has pledged to heal, reviving fears of a "clash of civilizations."
    Four years ago, a Danish newspaper published cartoons lampooning the prophet Muhammad, prompting angry mobs to attack Western embassies in Muslim countries, including Lebanon, Iran and Indonesia. In a countermovement, several European newspapers reprinted the images.

    The countries that form the 56-member Organization of the Islamic Conference are now lobbying a little-known Geneva-based U.N. committee to agree that a treaty protecting religions is necessary.

    The move would be a first step toward drafting an international protocol that would eventually be put before the General Assembly — a process that could take a decade or more.

    The proposal may have some support in the General Assembly. For several years the Islamic Conference has successfully passed a nonbinding resolution at the General Assembly condemning "defamation of religions."

    If the treaty was approved, any of the U.N.'s 192 member states that ratified it would be bound by its provisions. Other countries could face criticism for refusing to join.

    Just last month, the Obama administration came out strongly against efforts by Islamic nations to bar the defamation of religions, saying the moves would restrict free speech.

    "Some claim that the best way to protect the freedom of religion is to implement so-called anti-defamation policies that would restrict freedom of expression and the freedom of religion," Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton said. "I strongly disagree."

    But there are signs the U.S. is worried by the Islamic Conference campaign. Behind the scenes it has been lobbying hard to quash the proposal, dispatching a senior U.S. diplomat to Geneva last month for talks described as akin to trench warfare.

    "The U.S. presence can be significant in determining the whole destiny of the process," said Lukas Machon, who represents the International Commission of Jurists at the U.N.

    From a legal point of view, "the whole exercise is dangerous from A-Z because it's a departure from the practice and concept of human rights," Machon said. "It adds only restrictions."

    In a letter obtained by the AP, Pakistan said insults against religion were on the increase.

    The Islamic Conference "believes that the attack on sacredly held beliefs and the defamation of religions, religious symbols, personalities and dogmas impinge on the enjoyment of human rights of followers of those religions," the letter said. It was sent last month to members of the Ad Hoc Committee on Complementary Standards, a temporary committee created to consider a previous anti-racism treaty.

    In a separate submission to the committee, Pakistan proposed extending the treaty against racism to require signatories to "prohibit by law the uttering of matters that are grossly abusive or insulting in relation to matters held sacred by any religion."

    It's not clear who would decide what is considered grossly abusive, but each country's criminal courts would likely have initial jurisdiction over that decision, according to Marghoob Saleem Butt, a Pakistani diplomat in Geneva who confirmed the campaign's existence and has lobbied for the ban.


    "There has to be a balance between freedom of expression and respect for others," Butt said in a telephone interview.

    "Taking the symbol of a whole religion and portraying him as a terrorist," said Butt, referring to the Muhammad cartoons, "that is where we draw the line."

    One American expert with more than 20 years experience of the U.N. human rights system said the treaty could have far-reaching implications.

    "It would, in essence, advance a global blasphemy law," said Felice Gaer, a member of the U.S. Commission on International Religious Freedom. The independent, congressionally mandated panel issued a report last week warning that existing laws against blasphemy, including in Pakistan, "often have resulted in gross human rights violations."

    In Egypt, blasphemy laws have been used to suppress dissidents, said Moataz el-Fegiery, executive director of the Cairo Institute for Human Rights Studies. Abdel Kareem Nabil, a blogger, was sentenced in February 2007 to four years in prison for insulting Islam and Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak.

    He said reformists who reinterpret traditional Islamic texts have also become the target of blasphemy accusations.

    More broadly, introducing laws to protect religions from criticism would weaken the whole notion of human rights, said Sweden's ambassador to the U.N. in Geneva, Hans Dahlgren.

    "Religions as such do not have rights — it's people who have rights," he said, adding that the European Union, whose presidency Sweden currently holds, would oppose attempts to limit freedom of speech.

    The treaty goes against the grain of recent efforts by Western and Muslim countries to find common ground on human rights.

    Only last month a joint U.S.-Egyptian resolution on freedom of expression won unanimous support in the U.N. Human Rights Council, much to the surprise of seasoned observers. "We will engage, and we're going to keep engaging," said Michael Parmly, spokesman for the U.S. Mission in Geneva.

    In a telephone interview Wednesday, the Ad Hoc Committee's chairman, Algerian Ambassador Idriss Jazairy, said concerns the treaty could stifle free speech have been "whipped up into a bugaboo."

    Failure to agree on a treaty would boost extremists in the Arab world, said Jazairy, a former envoy to Washington now considered a key player in the U.N.'s human rights forum.

    "If we keep hitting this glass wall and say there's nothing you can do about Islamophobia — you can do something about anti-Semitism but Islamophobia is out of bounds — you give an ideal platform for recruitment of suicide bombers," he said.
    And people wonder why others vote BNP.
    Source: http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/...260SwD9C2SQ401
    Know where you're going in life . . . you may already be there!

  2. #2

    Default Re: AP:Muslim countries seek blasphemy ban

    What? You asay that people vote BNP because of some proposed international measures against defamation. In fact it is not even a campaign, mere lobbying. I would wager that only a handful souls in Britain would have heard of this.

    I thought that people voted BNP were losers who think that some charlatan will provide them free houses and jobs for little more than giving brown people a hard time.

    There are genuine reasons why anti-blasphemy laws need to be looked at with skepticism. After all I would not like to have missed out on this. Excellent stuff. We should see more from this talented man.





    Other Christians don't see it that way. Sod them.

    http://www.examiner.com/examiner/x-2044-Atheism-Examiner~y2009m10d28-Larry-David-pisses-off-Christians-by-pissing-on-Christ

    Of course I don't see you highlighting Christian efforts to censor the media, but I expect they are not your target.

    You are aware that there are other religions apart from Islam?

    For one to say that such regulations should be opposed because it makes it hard to spread lies innuendo and bigoty and other shite, is daft. It is hardly an argument at all.
    Last edited by mongrel; November 22, 2009 at 09:29 AM.
    Absolutley Barking, Mudpit Mutt Former Patron: Garbarsardar

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  3. #3

    Default Re: AP:Muslim countries seek blasphemy ban

    Quote Originally Posted by mongrel View Post
    What? You asay that people vote BNP because of some proposed international measures against defamation. In fact it is not even a campaign, mere lobbying. I would wager that only a handful souls in Britain would have heard of this.

    I thought that people voted BNP were losers who think that some charlatan will provide them free houses and jobs for little more than giving brown people a hard time.

    There are genuine reasons why anti-blasphemy laws need to be looked at with skepticism. After all I would not like to have missed out on this. Excellent stuff. We should see more from this talented man.




    You are aware that there are other religions apart from Islam?

    For one to say that such regulations should be opposed because it makes it hard to spread lies innuendo and bigoty and other shite, is daft. It is hardly an argument at all.
    If that is all you got from that article then you need to read it again.
    Know where you're going in life . . . you may already be there!

  4. #4

    Default Re: AP:Muslim countries seek blasphemy ban

    Quote Originally Posted by Digbert View Post
    If that is all you got from that article then you need to read it again.
    Still a churnalised report about something that hasn't happened. It contains such glaring inaccuracies such as "Free speech laws in the West". Since when did the UK have free speech laws? That the Islamic Conference is lobbying a "little known" talking shop. So if it is little known how does your average wannabe fascist get to hear of this? Oh and where are these documents?

    Some US Christians are trying to give Larry David a hard time for producing the best episode of Curb I have seen for a while, real stuff happening now, and you choose to post this nonsense?

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/1..._n_337199.html

    So in your view, some Christians angry about a Jew pissing on Christ, no comment, some Muslims angry about insulting cartoons, vote BNP.

    I think I have found the relevant policy document. If I am wrong I dare say someone will provide the correct one.

    http://www.oic-oci.org/english/article/UNHRC-rep.pdf

    It is nothing like what your posts says.

    Faceless UN wallah....The Special Rapporteur invites the Council to call upon Governments of MemberStates to express and demonstrate a firm political will and commitment to combating the rise of racial and religious hatred. In this context Governments should be particularly vigilant in combating the political use of discrimination and xenophobia, notably the
    ideological and electoral impregnation of racist and xenophobic platforms into the
    programmes of democratic parties, and should strongly reaffirm the principle that the
    respect for human rights, including the eradication of the roots of the culture of racism,
    xenophobia and intolerance, constitute the strongest pillar of national security and
    democracy and should not be dependent on any ideological and political convenience.
    Bog standard stuff to me or am I missing something
    Last edited by mongrel; November 22, 2009 at 09:55 AM.
    Absolutley Barking, Mudpit Mutt Former Patron: Garbarsardar

    "Out of the crooked tree of humanity,no straight thing can be made." Immanuel Kant
    "Oh Yeah? What about a cricket bat? That's pretty straight. Just off the top of my head..." Al Murray, Pub Landlord.

  5. #5

    Default Re: AP:Muslim countries seek blasphemy ban

    Quote Originally Posted by mongrel View Post
    Some US Christians are trying to give Larry David a hard time for producing the best episode of Curb I have seen for a while, real stuff happening now, and you choose to post this nonsense?
    So because 'some US christians' are complaining about a perceived insult to their religion, one should not be allowed to talk about such trivial 'nonsense' as a campaign for global restriction of freedom of speech? Do you seriously believe complaining about a TV show is the worst of the two? They are not attempting to censor it, they're merely voicing their disgust - which, while a completely over-the-top reaction, doesn't harm anyone. As long as they don't demand laws for said show to be banned, who cares? I think Larry David can well handle the 'hard time' given to him by some angry tweets and a few lines of angered commentary by the Catholic League.

  6. #6

    Default Re: AP:Muslim countries seek blasphemy ban

    Quote Originally Posted by Count Froody View Post
    So because 'some US christians' are complaining about a perceived insult to their religion, one should not be allowed to talk about such trivial 'nonsense' as a campaign for global restriction of freedom of speech? Do you seriously believe complaining about a TV show is the worst of the two? They are not attempting to censor it, they're merely voicing their disgust - which, while a completely over-the-top reaction, doesn't harm anyone. As long as they don't demand laws for said show to be banned, who cares? I think Larry David can well handle the 'hard time' given to him by some angry tweets and a few lines of angered commentary by the Catholic League.

    Complaining about the TV show is the worst of the two because it is real and has happened. The news article is almost certainly a lie so is automatically trivial in comparison. and i still fail how this encourages normal people to vote BNP.

    Look at the UN document I have posted . Is it really asking for restrictions on free speech or is it asking governments to take action on those who wish to damage social cohesion for political purposes. To be honest at this stage, I don't care because after 2 years the proposals have gone precisely nowhere.

    Of course the OP is travety of the truth. But there again if a article has quotes from unnamed sources, refers to unnamed committees and says it has unnamed documents it somehow cannot show or quote from, you then the odds are that the journalist has something to hide.

    Found the resolution (of March 2009)

    http://www.eclj.org/PDF/OICDefamatio...on03-12-09.pdf

    You may wish to read Article 12. It suggests to me that the proposal is not a "law" or indeed any binding proposal in any meaningful sense.

    Urges all States to provide, within their respective legal and constitutional systems,
    adequate protection against acts of hatred, discrimination, intimidation and coercion
    resulting from defamation of religions, and incitement to religious hatred in general, and
    to take all possible measures to promote tolerance and respect for all religions and beliefs;
    As the EU already has "adequate protection" they need to feck-all, shall I now consider the thread owned?
    Last edited by mongrel; November 22, 2009 at 10:28 AM.
    Absolutley Barking, Mudpit Mutt Former Patron: Garbarsardar

    "Out of the crooked tree of humanity,no straight thing can be made." Immanuel Kant
    "Oh Yeah? What about a cricket bat? That's pretty straight. Just off the top of my head..." Al Murray, Pub Landlord.

  7. #7

    Default Re: AP:Muslim countries seek blasphemy ban

    Quote Originally Posted by mongrel View Post
    Still a churnalised report about something that hasn't happened. It contains such glaring inaccuracies such as "Free speech laws in the West". Since when did the UK have free speech laws? That the Islamic Conference is lobbying a "little known" talking shop. So if it is little known how does your average wannabe fascist get to hear of this? Oh and where are these documents?

    Some US Christians are trying to give Larry David a hard time for producing the best episode of Curb I have seen for a while, real stuff happening now, and you choose to post this nonsense?

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/1..._n_337199.html

    So in your view, some Christians angry about a Jew pissing on Christ, no comment, some Muslims angry about insulting cartoons, vote BNP....
    Just pointing out something : Notice that the Catholics are voicing their right to Freedom of Speech as well.

    I don't see where in that article they are calling for government restrictions on "Curb Your Enthusiasm." But, they are well within their rights to criticize or even boycott a Private Business if they want to just as CYE is free to make whatever shows they want as well. But, just because CYE has the right to express opinions doesn't mean that people won't react to those opinions. If a private business gets enough complaints about one of its biggest salespersons, it will fire them. If HBO gets enough complaints it will tell CYE to change its tone. As a private business, HBO isn't required to let CYE say whatever it wants. If CYE doesn't like that, they can go to another network, if one will have them.

    There is a HUGE difference between people calling for government action to restrict forms of expression and people complaining to a privately held company about its own policies. The two are not the same at all.

  8. #8

    Default Re: AP:Muslim countries seek blasphemy ban

    I'd agree, if there was also a ban on holding women responsible for their own rape and stoning them to death, in those same countries.

    You can't demand rights for your state religion, while people in your country don't have them, that is ridiculous.

    Almost as ridiculous as companies and corporations having more rights than people.

    shall I now consider the thread owned
    Nahhh, you made too many spelling mistakes.
    Last edited by hocca; November 22, 2009 at 11:50 AM.


  9. #9
    Monarchist's Avatar Civitate
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    Default Re: AP:Muslim countries seek blasphemy ban

    I find the CYE episode you posted to be disgusting, mongrel, but to ban it would disgust me even more. I think Larry David is a horrible man, but that shouldn't stop him from making what he makes. Being a fundamentalist Christian whackjob myself, it is still more important to me that he be allowed to do and say what he likes, than for me not to be offended. On the same token, I believe that men who put crosses in urine and icons of Mary in elephant dung should be allowed to do what they do. I may not consider it art at all, and it is most certainly evil blasphemy... but I don't believe in Theocracy, so I cannot justify blasphemy laws. What the international Muslim conspiracy is doing here disgusts me as much as David's bizarre show, and as much as any Catholic attempts to ban that show. Free speech and conscience are the most important things in the world.

    Of course, those Islamists should have the freedom to demand such things... they just won't get them.
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  10. #10

    Default Re: AP:Muslim countries seek blasphemy ban

    Quote Originally Posted by Winterlight View Post
    I find the CYE episode you posted to be disgusting, mongrel, but to ban it would disgust me even more. I think Larry David is a horrible man, but that shouldn't stop him from making what he makes. Being a fundamentalist Christian whackjob myself, it is still more important to me that he be allowed to do and say what he likes, than for me not to be offended. On the same token, I believe that men who put crosses in urine and icons of Mary in elephant dung should be allowed to do what they do. I may not consider it art at all, and it is most certainly evil blasphemy... but I don't believe in Theocracy, so I cannot justify blasphemy laws. What the international Muslim conspiracy is doing here disgusts me as much as David's bizarre show, and as much as any Catholic attempts to ban that show. Free speech and conscience are the most important things in the world.

    Of course, those Islamists should have the freedom to demand such things... they just won't get them.
    There is indeed a fine line between art, free speech and gratuitously causing offence. Larry David was doing so for a laugh, Chris Ofili out of reverence, although i'd rather he use oils like anyone else, the Danish cartoonist were clearly doing so for a wind-up and as for Piss-Christ ???. In Europe there are laws to cover genuine incitement, the trouble nowadays is that lines are blurred as extremists on all sides of the divide push the boundaries.

    And no there is no international Muslim conspiracy discussing this, rather there are active politically motivated groups of people dedicated to promoting Islamophobia with has propmpted some governments to action. We have had this problem since PNAC was published. We don't need the UN to tell us what to do, we just need to discredit the neo-cons and their spear-carriers.
    Absolutley Barking, Mudpit Mutt Former Patron: Garbarsardar

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  11. #11
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    Default Re: AP:Muslim countries seek blasphemy ban

    I'm not too sure about that. I am "Islamophobic", in the sense that the religion of Islam scares the life out of me. Conspiracy or no, I would prefer that Europe stay majority Christian. Either way, that is nothing related to this subject.
    "Pauci viri sapientiae student."
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  12. #12

    Default Re: AP:Muslim countries seek blasphemy ban

    Quote Originally Posted by Winterlight View Post
    I'm not too sure about that. I am "Islamophobic", in the sense that the religion of Islam scares the life out of me. Conspiracy or no, I would prefer that Europe stay majority Christian. Either way, that is nothing related to this subject.
    As a Christian I would prefer that the planet was entirely Christian, but I am worldly enough to know that that isn't going to happen.

    I feel duty bound to dismiss any unwarranted bigotry, particularly in the case of the news article, where is is based on spin or lies. If a cause is worth debating it does not require underhand methods to present it, and that's the problem i have in this case. The OP had all the classic features, almost stereotypical really.
    Absolutley Barking, Mudpit Mutt Former Patron: Garbarsardar

    "Out of the crooked tree of humanity,no straight thing can be made." Immanuel Kant
    "Oh Yeah? What about a cricket bat? That's pretty straight. Just off the top of my head..." Al Murray, Pub Landlord.

  13. #13
    Last Roman's Avatar ron :wub:in swanson
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    Default Re: AP:Muslim countries seek blasphemy ban

    No way that something like this would pass in the UN. And even if it did (unlikely) would people even really follow it?
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  14. #14

    Default Re: AP:Muslim countries seek blasphemy ban

    Will never ever pass and if by some chance it did I will personally buy a picture of mohammed and a koran and wipe my butt with both and send it to a mosque that supports this nonsense.

  15. #15

    Default Re: AP:Muslim countries seek blasphemy ban

    Quote Originally Posted by danzig View Post
    Will never ever pass and if by some chance it did I will personally buy a picture of mohammed and a koran and wipe my butt with both and send it to a mosque that supports this nonsense.
    As not a single mosque is able to implement or ratify these proposals, as far as I know only sovereign nations belong to the UN, you should stick to bog roll, unless there is a drastic shortage in your country. In the event you can't find any, a copy of the Lisbon Treaty should last you a fair while.
    Absolutley Barking, Mudpit Mutt Former Patron: Garbarsardar

    "Out of the crooked tree of humanity,no straight thing can be made." Immanuel Kant
    "Oh Yeah? What about a cricket bat? That's pretty straight. Just off the top of my head..." Al Murray, Pub Landlord.

  16. #16
    Copperknickers II's Avatar quaeri, si sapis
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    Default Re: AP:Muslim countries seek blasphemy ban

    What exactly is the difference between a Blasphemy Ban, and Germany's ban on Nazi symbols? Hypocrisy much?
    A new mobile phone tower went up in a town in the USA, and the local newspaper asked a number of people what they thought of it. Some said they noticed their cellphone reception was better. Some said they noticed the tower was affecting their health.

    A local administrator was asked to comment. He nodded sagely, and said simply: "Wow. And think about how much more pronounced these effects will be once the tower is actually operational."

  17. #17
    Last Roman's Avatar ron :wub:in swanson
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    Default Re: AP:Muslim countries seek blasphemy ban

    Quote Originally Posted by Copperknickers View Post
    What exactly is the difference between a Blasphemy Ban, and Germany's ban on Nazi symbols? Hypocrisy much?
    Well one incited a genocide and the world's deadliest war, blasphemy well...hasn't. Not that I agree with Germany's ban on the party, but you trying to compare one to the other doesn't add up.
    house of Rububula, under the patronage of Nihil, patron of Hotspur, David Deas, Freddie, Askthepizzaguy and Ketchfoop
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  18. #18
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    Default Re: AP:Muslim countries seek blasphemy ban

    Quote Originally Posted by Last Roman View Post
    Well one incited a genocide and the world's deadliest war, blasphemy well...hasn't. Not that I agree with Germany's ban on the party, but you trying to compare one to the other doesn't add up.
    The Swastika incited a Genocide? Incited means 'provoked' btw, so i am truly at a loss as to what you means.

    Blasphemy is offensive to Muslims. Blasphemy has incited countless killings, and was in fact one of the major causes of the Holocaust in that the Jews were the archetypal European scapegoat because of their blasphemy in the eyes of Christians.
    A new mobile phone tower went up in a town in the USA, and the local newspaper asked a number of people what they thought of it. Some said they noticed their cellphone reception was better. Some said they noticed the tower was affecting their health.

    A local administrator was asked to comment. He nodded sagely, and said simply: "Wow. And think about how much more pronounced these effects will be once the tower is actually operational."

  19. #19

    Default Re: AP:Muslim countries seek blasphemy ban

    Quote Originally Posted by Copperknickers View Post
    What exactly is the difference between a Blasphemy Ban, and Germany's ban on Nazi symbols? Hypocrisy much?
    What exactly is the similarity?
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  20. #20

    Default Re: AP:Muslim countries seek blasphemy ban

    Quote Originally Posted by Digbert View Post
    And people wonder why others vote BNP.
    Source: http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/...260SwD9C2SQ401
    Nobody wonders why others vote BNP. People vote BNP if they are stupid, racist or both.

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