How to build a Pagan Roman Empire

[Julianus Flavius]

when I play as Julian or Procopius, I always try and make the empire entirely pagan, Jew or Manichaeist, in accordance with Julian's dream. I think we should compile a list of strategies to win like this. I'll start off. Note these are all for the Julian as sole Emperor campaign.
Firstly, remove the disloyal from positions of power. The field armies are one of your most important weapons and these need to remain under your control.
Secondly, consolidate the forts on the Rhine (The river with the franks on the other side) by moving troops out of forts that don't match up with a bridge or ford point into forts or settlements that do. Forts that are abandoned but still close to the front make good wintering sites for the field armies, so keep all forts alive. Praevatorians are good for this.
Thirdly, immediately prepare to attack the barbarian tribes to the north. This will swell your treasury.
Fourthly, demolish churches and build temples where nessicary. Nova Carthago is an example of this. Also make Rome your capital. You are the ROMAN empire after all and it is a more central capital than Constantinople.
And lastly, get the economy in Gaul back online as fast as you can. The money from the churches should help with this.

Hope that helped!

[Gen.jamesWolfe]

when I play as Julian or Procopius, I always try and make the empire entirely pagan, Jew or Manichaeist, in accordance with Julian's dream. I think we should compile a list of strategies to win like this. I'll start off. Note these are all for the Julian as sole Emperor campaign.
Firstly, remove the disloyal from positions of power. The field armies are one of your most important weapons and these need to remain under your control.
Secondly, consolidate the forts on the Rhine (The river with the franks on the other side) by moving troops out of forts that don't match up with a bridge or ford point into forts or settlements that do. Forts that are abandoned but still close to the front make good wintering sites for the field armies, so keep all forts alive. Praevatorians are good for this.
Thirdly, immediately prepare to attack the barbarian tribes to the north. This will swell your treasury.
Fourthly, demolish churches and build temples where nessicary. Nova Carthago is an example of this. Also make Rome your capital. You are the ROMAN empire after all and it is a more central capital than Constantinople.
And lastly, get the economy in Gaul back online as fast as you can. The money from the churches should help with this.

Hope that helped!

simple: if a christian town gives crap about religion, let it revolt, siege, and execute everybody on capture. what's left will be easier convert.

it works with me

[Naughteous Maximus]

Hey has anyone had a completely Jewish empire? I wonder what kind of stats your generals would get? Would they all be bankers, entertainers, and lawers? Hey would you have civil wars over MONEY?


NM

[Julianus Flavius]

Afraid the Jewish temples can only be built in certain areas, not Gaul and not Britannia, only parts of Hispania and Hellas, up to Roma in Italia, in the middle east to about Cstesiphon and in Aegyptus and north Africa.
A mostly Jewish empire would be theoretically possible though. As would a Manichaeist one, actually that would be easier as Manichaeist characters are a lot more common than Jewish ones (Never seen a Jewish Roman general, or any faction for that matter) and their temples have anti-everyone-else's-religion modifiers too. But both would involve massive public order problems, it would make running a Pagan empire look like a quiet library compared to it.
Historically, the Manichaeists ended up exterminated in Skythopolis didn't they?

[Naughteous Maximus]

In my empire only Aelia-Capitolina is predominently Jewish at about 80% of the population. I just stuck a govenor there and hopefully his offspring,(if he has any male children(s), oh and he gets married first also) they'll turn out Jews, maybe hasidic at that. Oy vea.

[xjohnnywas]

Julian

yes i'm a pagan emperor. paganism is a more optimistic religion, more concerned with the environment and more open to rational and scientific debate. the pagan traditions also emphasises the power of the emperor and the emperors generosity to all those who serve.

I have a standing army of peasants, infantry and siege engines. have them accompanied by a devoutly pagan general with good influence (and a retinue of administrators/pagans). small cities can be converted just by the presence of additional peasants. larger cities may need to be subued by force.

Have this army at the rear of the empire away from the front. move your capital to the front and use this army of pagan crusaders as a general police force to deal with rebel cities which have got too big.
keeping your cities at the rear small by suppressing revolts brutally on the slightest pretext will feed your frontier towns with large numbers of new citizens

quickly dispose of troublesome generals (devout) and let them pick up retinues like papal envoys. keep them away from cities you want to convert to paganism. have the useless ones killed (suicide missions). bit difficult in my current game because I have about 12 christian generals and only 2 pagan ones. I'm playing Invasio Barbarorum as the Western Empire.

build lots of big temples (temples are both good at building morale, no better than churches but still good)

j

[xjohnnywas]

IB RR. (Sorry I got carried away). I'll have a go at IB: SAI it sounds good

[Emperor Domitianus]

I like making pagan Roman Empire. Cristianity made the Empire weak and after all Julianus was stabbed in the back by a christian soldier.

My main tactic is something like the one in the first post. When cities revolt I kill everyone and reset the loyalty as it should be.

[Valentinian Victor]

I like making pagan Roman Empire. Cristianity made the Empire weak and after all Julianus was stabbed in the back by a christian soldier.

My main tactic is something like the one in the first post. When cities revolt I kill everyone and reset the loyalty as it should be.

Sorry, but most of what you are saying is wrong.

Christianity did not weaken the Empire. Some of the strongest Late Roman Emperors were Christian ones. Even Julian was a Christian before he became sole Augustus and he never stated he totally gave up being a Christian. In fact, one branch of Christianity would have had a certain appeal to Julian, Gnostic Christianity with its occult overtones. And just for the record I am not a Christian.

It was a Sasanid noble who thrust his spear through Julians side, not a Christian fanatic sneaking up behind him, stabbing him in the back. Ammianus, the great worshipper of Julian, would have been the first to tell everyone in his history if it were a Christian who killed Julian. Don't forget Ammianus was in Julian's army during the invasion of Sasanid Persia and was a witness to Julian's death.

I'm afraid that Julian has been overly praised by many historians who have glossed over Julian's weaknesses and especially have been unwilling to accept that Julian's abortive invasion of the Sasanid Empire was a complete and utter disaster for the Romans, who only recovered when a strong CHRISTIAN Emperor, Valentinian I, became Emperor.

[Valentinian Victor]

'But while the emperor rushed hither and thither amid the foremost ranks of the combatants, and as the Persians turned in flight, they hacked at their legs and backs, and those of the elephants. Julianus, careless of his own safety, shouting and raising his hands tried to make it clear to his men that the enemy had fled in disorder, and, to rouse them to a still more furious pursuit, rushed boldly into the fight. His guards,who had scattered in their alarm, were crying to him from all sides to get clear of the mass of fugitives, as dangerous as the fall of a badly built roof, when suddenly — no one knows whence — a cavalryman's spear grazed the skin of his arm, pierced his ribs, and lodged in the lower lobe of his liver. While he was trying to pluck this out with his right hand, he felt that the sinews of his fingers were cut through on both sides by the sharp steel. Then he fell from his horse, all present hastened to the spot, he was taken to camp and given medical treatment. And soon, as the pain diminished somewhat, he ceased to fear, and fighting with great spirit against death, he called for his arms and his horse in order by his return to the fight to restore the confidence of his men, and troubling nothing about himself, to show that he was filled with great anxiety for the safety of the others; with the same vigour, though under different conditions, with which the famous leader Epaminondas, when mortally wounded at Mantinia and carried from the field, took particular care to ask for his shield.And p495when he saw it near him, he died of his terrible wound, happy; for he who gave up his life without fear dreaded the loss of his shield. But since Julianus's strength was not equal to his will, and he was weakened by great loss of blood, he lay still, having lost all hope for his life because, on inquiry, he learned that the place where he had fallen was called Phrygia.For he had heard that it was fate's decree that he should die there. But when the emperor had been taken to his tent, the soldiers, burning with wrath and grief, with incredible vigour rushed to avenge him, clashing their spears against their shields, resolved even to die if it should be the will of fate. And although the high clouds of dust blinded the eyes, and the burning heat weakened the activity of their limbs, yet as though discharged by the loss of their leader, without sparing themselves, they rushed upon the swords of the enemy. On the other hand, the exulting Persians sent forth such a shower of arrows that they prevented their opponents from seeing the bowmen. Before them slowly marched the elephants, which with their huge size of body and horrifying crests, struck terror into horses and men. Further off, the trampling of the combatants, the groans of the falling, the panting of the horses, and the ring of arms were heard, until finally both parties were weary of inflicting wounds and the darkness of night ended the battle. On that day fifty Persian grandees and satraps fell, besides a great number of common soldiers, and among them the distinguished generals Merena and Nohodares were slain. The boastfulness of antiquity may view with amazement the twenty battles of Marcellus in various places; it may add Sicinius Dentatus, honoured with a multitude of military crowns; it may besides admire Sergius, who (they say) was wounded twenty-three times in different battles, and whose last descendant Catiline tarnished the glorious renown of these victories with an indelible stain. Yet the joy in our success was marred by sorrow. For while the fight went on everywhere after the withdrawal of the leader, the right wing of the army was exhausted, and Anatolius, at that time chief marshal of the court, was killed. Salutius, the prefect, was in extreme danger, but was saved by the help of his adjutant, and by a fortunate chance escaped death, while Phosphorius, a councillor who chanced to be at his side, was lost. Some of the court officials and soldiers, amid many dangers, took refuge in a neighbouring fortress, and were able to rejoin the army only after three days.'
Amm XXV 2, 5-14

[Emperor Domitianus]

Sorry, but most of what you are saying is wrong.

Christianity did not weaken the Empire. Some of the strongest Late Roman Emperors were Christian ones. Even Julian was a Christian before he became sole Augustus and he never stated he totally gave up being a Christian. In fact, one branch of Christianity would have had a certain appeal to Julian, Gnostic Christianity with its occult overtones. And just for the record I am not a Christian.

It was a Sasanid noble who thrust his spear through Julians side, not a Christian fanatic sneaking up behind him, stabbing him in the back. Ammianus, the great worshipper of Julian, would have been the first to tell everyone in his history if it were a Christian who killed Julian. Don't forget Ammianus was in Julian's army during the invasion of Sasanid Persia and was a witness to Julian's death.

I'm afraid that Julian has been overly praised by many historians who have glossed over Julian's weaknesses and especially have been unwilling to accept that Julian's abortive invasion of the Sasanid Empire was a complete and utter disaster for the Romans, who only recovered when a strong CHRISTIAN Emperor, Valentinian I, became Emperor.

Sorry man but you are wrong. Cristyanity had too much infiltrated among the Empire structure weakning it. The church privileges was weakining the economy especially in the west, people being part of the church had the possibility to avoid the levy obliging the Emperors to rely too much on mercenaries and barbarians foederaties.
Not to mention that the culture and teaching was being in their hands manipulating the classic culture and denigrating the classical filosophy where it wasn't able to apply christian revelation to filosophers. Infact for example Platon was considered as a some sort of pre christian only because he talked about the Demiurg, a some sort of God.
Infact Julian attached both jews and christians because they were too much infiltrated in every aspect of life for culture to religion being a weakness instead the force it wasn't.
Again from other fonts it hasn't been the Sasanis noble to stab Julian. The fact that Ammianus was in his army and a worshipper this doesn't mean that he has been the unique and the only font even if he was very accurate in his work about Roman History. It has been demonstated (I don't remember where I read it) that it's high probable that Julian was stabbed in the back by a soldier because he was tring to restore the pagan religion or at least making religion the same way it was in the past.

[Julianus Flavius]

I think that's just personal opinion. Personally, I agree with Domitianus but that's off topic.
Currently my conversion policy has two opposite schools of thought:
1) Do it all at once, you'll have no money next turn anyway
OR
2) Do it region by region, starting with Greece and Italy as they have the most established pagan buildings.

[Valentinian Victor]

Rather than reading modern works by authors who have their own agenda's, I'd suggest reading a spread of the ancient authors who wrote about Julian, both 'pagan' and 'christian' ones. In the book list I put in the main IB section you will find a number of authors whose works I can recommend. Ammianus, Libanius, Orosius, Zosimos, Sozomen would be a good start, and all of them can be downloaded from the internet for free. I would also suggest reading Julian's own works as your then reading direct from the man himself, and not his worshippers or detractors.

I can only reitterate that whilst Julian had 'pagan' ideals, he was tolerant towards christianity and other religions. He did not order the destruction of christian churches, unlike Constantius II who ordered the destruction of pagan temples. Julian was very keen to see the Empire held together with a greater understanding between all religions. There is absolutely no reason whatsoever to believe a christian soldier, or any other christian wanted Julian dead, especially as there may have been a back-lash against christians should it have ever been proved they murdered an Emperor who was beloved by Roman's greatest might, its army.

[ray243]

Sorry man but you are wrong. Cristyanity had too much infiltrated among the Empire structure weakning it. The church privileges was weakining the economy especially in the west, people being part of the church had the possibility to avoid the levy obliging the Emperors to rely too much on mercenaries and barbarians foederaties.
Not to mention that the culture and teaching was being in their hands manipulating the classic culture and denigrating the classical filosophy where it wasn't able to apply christian revelation to filosophers. Infact for example Platon was considered as a some sort of pre christian only because he talked about the Demiurg, a some sort of God.
Infact Julian attached both jews and christians because they were too much infiltrated in every aspect of life for culture to religion being a weakness instead the force it wasn't.
Again from other fonts it hasn't been the Sasanis noble to stab Julian. The fact that Ammianus was in his army and a worshipper this doesn't mean that he has been the unique and the only font even if he was very accurate in his work about Roman History. It has been demonstated (I don't remember where I read it) that it's high probable that Julian was stabbed in the back by a soldier because he was tring to restore the pagan religion or at least making religion the same way it was in the past.

If this is the case, why didn't the Eastern Roman Empire fell?

[Patricius]

It's also contended by some historians that Christianity was highly successful even before Constantine Magnus. The opposition to abortion (at that time seriously dangerous) and infanticide appealed to women, and helped the Christian birthrate. Christian women would marry pagans and the offspring would often be brought up as Christian. Also the obligation to care for the sick and charity ensured that Christians were more likely to survive illness, and pagans who were also helped were likelier to convert. The argument is demographics and a strong appeal to women.

Julian did forbid Christians to teach as he contended a Christian teaching the Iliad and other classical texts could not be sincere as he would not believe in the gods mentioned in the texts, or who were believed to have inspired them. His reference for the traditional cults was seen as bit over the top. He earned the sobriquet of 'butcher' from his over-enthusiasm for blood sacrifice. His efforts at building a sort of church of the old religion just ran contrary to the nature of most of them. Correct observation of ritual matter more in respect of them. If he had ruled longer, from not invading Persia, his tolerance might have eroded considerably.

This mod allows multiple temples so there is no need to made a sudden choice about temples. One problem is that city with all possible temples can have insane population growth rates (personally only the Christian churches should have any sort of population bonus like in Vanilla for the reason I mentioned, except perhaps the temple of Ceres as a farming bonus suits it). One city had a 12% growth rate - one of the barbarian towns, forget which one. I don't think it's possible to have Jewish generals in the mod, but I stand to be corrected. I'll check the files. Jerusalem is a lot of bother. It has revolted on me a few times. I try to avoid exterminating for money, as it seems a bit of an exploit.

[Julianus Flavius]

It's theoretically possible to have a Roman general of Pagan, Christian, Jewish, Manichaean or Zorostrian faiths, but I don't think you can get Hindu or Buddhist Romans. For some reason, Jewish Romas are hard to come across and the religion is only viable in Jerusalem (Alea Capitolina) anyway because they only have two levels of temple, like the manichaeans but the Manichaeans confer negatove growth on other religions as well as a greater conversion rate than Christian or Pagan temples of the equivalent level in the tech tree.

[Patricius]

Jerusalem also a Temple Mount structure that gives a fairly big conversion bonus. Honestly I'd almost evacuate it and leave it to rebels, but that piece of land is crucial to moving troops in the region.

[Julianus Flavius]

It's pointless to try to make that place any religion other than Jewish, especially as the Romans, who can build Jewish temples. It's of course possible but it's a waste of money, troops and time.
Also, why is a settlement in spain Jewish? There's like 2 settlements that start off Jewish and there on opposite sides of the map!

[julianus heraclius]

It's pointless to try to make that place any religion other than Jewish, especially as the Romans, who can build Jewish temples. It's of course possible but it's a waste of money, troops and time.
Also, why is a settlement in spain Jewish? There's like 2 settlements that start off Jewish and there on opposite sides of the map!

Because, believe it or n ot, there were Jewish settlements in parts of Spain at the time.

[Julianus Flavius]

Ah so there's an historical basis for that settlement. Not that I ever doubted you. (Honest) :p