EDU-matic: Automatic unit balance/EDU generation system

[Aradan]

Probably nobody besides you is testing it so rigorously. I still haven't had time to fix the bug you mentioned earlier.


Hm, maybe I should convert cost-related integers to longs.

[Siegfriedfr]

I searched but didnt find... can you "import" an already existing EDU into the EDU matic and work from there?

Thanks

[Aradan]

I'm afraid not, it wouldn't make much sense anyway, unless all you wanted to do is change all attacks by X or multiply all costs by X etc, because there's no way for the tool to tell what the reasoning is behind each value in another EDU.

[Siegfriedfr]

Ok, and is there a way to "excelize" an EDU (turn it into a spreadsheet). Sorry if i'm off topic :x

[Aradan]

You can replace all delimiters with the tab character, and you'd get an EDU that could be pasted on an .xls sheet and be read-able (ie in table form), but the tool wouldn't be able to do anything with that, because it doesn't "read" an EDU and extrapolate data, it reads data and produces an EDU. I hope that makes sense.


If what you want to do is simple additions/subtractions/multiplications of the current stats, without looking to overhaul the existing system from the ground up, those tools would be more useful to you.

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=295740
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=300613

[Rhaymo]

i have two units with same definition.
only "quality" element is different. Unit x have "Regular", unit y have "superior". both of them have shield "medium" "wood".
when i generate data sheet, unit x get shield value 4, unit y get shield value 5. this because "shieldwall min class" is superior for x-y culture.
My first question is : shieldwall shouldn't affect shield stat only when you activate special ability?? instead y get a bigger shield value ever.

Another problem: if i give bronze greaves to a unit z, z don't get a bigger armour value. I think i need a more large scale for stat value. do i need to change only "global modifiers"?

Third question: i have mercenaries units, recruitable by all factions. do i have assign them to all factions (because i got "Unit does not have any owners assigned") ??

thanks.

[Squid]

I can only answer 3. A mercenary unit (i.e. one that has the mercenary_unit unit attribute) needs slave recruitment only. If it doesn't have the mercenary_unit attribute and you're using it as a mercenary then it needs ownership for all factions you want to be able to recruit it.

[Rhaymo]

i dont'know if this is a bug.
i'm getting too much high values of charge for mounted units. this because macro computes charge value using also mount mass. but tw engine also use mount mass. if you have one foot unit and one mounted with equal charge value, mounted unit will have a more powerful impact because the game use mount mass (in export_descr_mount).
so, if you use charge value generated by the macro, mounted units will benefit of their mass two times: one time with their high value of charge, second time when tw engine combine this value with mount mass.

[Aradan]

High mass doesn't necessarily translate to more kills (it does, but not many). If you feel it's too much, simply lower the "base horse mass".

Keep in mind that the mass of the unit in the EDU is ignored for mounted units. The number that EDU-matic provides as mass for mounted units need to be put in descr_mounts by the user; so technically each unit (or group of units with similar masses) needs it own mount type.

[Rhaymo]

the problem is also the charge value.
For example, heavy cavalry with 2-handed lance have a charge of 64, with a mass of 7.36.
heavy infantry have charge 3 and mass 1.14.
tw engine take in account charge and mass, but edu-matic, when generate "64", already took in account mass.
If i set base horse mass to 1, heavy cavalry unit get a charge of 32..

[Aradan]

You can always edit the mass modifier of each horse type too. Anyway, here's the formula that calculates charge bonus for a mounted unit's primary weapon:

[Charge] = GlobalChargeMdf * (UnitCharge * QualClassChargeMdf * SpecCategoryChargeMdf * CultCategoryCavChargeMdf + PriWeaponCharge) * Sqr(UnitSpeed) * (Sqr(SoldierMass + HorseMass ^ 1.1) / ManMass)

Changing that "1.1" to "1.05" for instance will have a noticeable effect. Of course all these factors contribute to the final result. Which one do you think should be reduced?

[Rhaymo]

This is what i get for heavy cavalry, using your formula.
0,8*(4*1,1*1*1+12)*(1.6^0.5)*(sqr(1,05+6,29^1.1)/0,8) = 13,12*1,26*3,85=64

i think the problem is the last factor (Sqr(SoldierMass + HorseMass ^ 1.1) / ManMass). tw engine already take in account horse mass (reading from descr_mount). maybe you should consider only mounted unit mass.
Btw, charge value grow too much rapdly, i'm using a global charge of 0.8. i think charge should touch 60's only with global modifiers equal to 2 (to have a larger scale of stats do i have set gloabl modifiers to 2, alright?)

[Aradan]

I'll try to improve the formula. But the mount's mass has to play a part, otherwise you'd get an unamroured horse delivering the same "punch" as a cataphract horse (and more, because the light horse is faster).

[Rhaymo]

this is the point. tw engine already take in account mount's mass. if you have a foot unit with charge 10 and a mount unit with charge 10, mount unit delivers a more powerful charge because tw engine take in account foot mass(from edu) and mount mass (from descr_mount).
if also your formula take in account mount'mass, you'll get an unbalanced charge with advantage for mount units.
And tw engine also take in account unit speed...

[Aradan]

I see your point. I'll change the formula used for charge bonus for mounted units.

[Hannibal Smith]

First can I say that I think this is a really useful program, and I'm currently using it as a basis for the EDU for my mod. Thankyou very much for giving this to the community.

Ive recently converted my mod to run on BI and changed the platform in the EDU-matic to suite. I was surprised to find that now most of my units have the shield_wall capability. This was a surprise to me as I thought that it would only be applied to those units given the hoplite formation. What are the criteria on which this is applied? I cant seem to work out why some units are given the attribute while others are.

Is it possible to make changes so that only units given the hoplite phalanx formation are given this attribute? Or limit it just to spearmen?

[Aradan]

Units get shield wall if:

a) their formation type uses it

b) their culture allows units of their level upwards to have the ability and their primary melee weapon allows shield-wall and their shield-size allows shield-wall and they don't carry their shields on their backs


If you want to limit the ability to hopliet-type units only, simply remove the ability from the culture type tables and give it to a "Phalanx" formation type.
Alternatively, you can allow all cultures to have the ability, but only make large shields and long spears support it, so that only spearmen with such shields will get it.

[Hannibal Smith]

Thanks for the very quick reply Aradan, Ive made the changes that you suggested. Btw is there anyway to make unit mass culture dependant? At the moment I'm using two xls files, one for barbarians with mass set to 0.9 and one for the romans with the mass set to 0.8.

[Aradan]

Hm, no, I hadn't thought that there would be a need for that... Good point though. I'll add a mass modifier to the culture table.

[Hannibal Smith]

Is it possible for me to do that? Or will it feature in v1.5?