Espionage makes the game too easy

[Acid Dent]

I think using spies to open gates is unrealistic, specially because it makes the taking of cities much easier than it really is. In fact, not using spies seems downright dumb, knowing how much trouble and time they can save you.
With just one expert spy, you can enter an enemy settlement instantly, and the defending force will be scattered and guarding all gates, regardless of which direction you attack from.

This is a tremendous disadvantage to the opponent. You can safely invade them with equal or less manpower since they're disorganized and fighting in close quarters. Unless the city is stacked up on phalangites, a legion won't have a problem reaching the town center and holding it for 3 minutes.

With such a fast and easy way to conquer settlements, siege engineering is neglected and artillery is pretty much obsolete. You don't even need to worry about repercussions from enemy armies in the region - the city will be yours in the same turn you sieged it, and the gates will be working when they arrive!

I suggest you really consider lowering the gate-opening abilities of spies for RS2.
You could make the leveling-up process of spies much more demanding, or - and this seems like the most "realistic" solution - lower the chances (%) of opening gates down to near zero.
This would make it almost impossible for even the most elite of spies to "hand over the keys to the city". Now, I'm not implying that you take that ability from spies. Think about it. Didn't it ever seem absurd to you that one man is able to single-handedly unlock ALL the city gates in the day of the invasion?
If there's only a maximum skill success probability of 25% per spy, then you would need multiple spies if you ever hoped to achieve a multiple gate-opening feat like that!
(I'm guessing the success probability thing is cumulative. I don't know much about programming.)

So, what do you think? Sorry for the long post BTW.

[King_Darius]

sorry for being blunt....

but if you dont like spies, dont use them.

anyway, having stone wall gates opened is harder to conquer the settlement than having artillery/siege engines.

[Bull3pr00f de Bodemloze]

Meh...I see it as a game, so it doesn't have to be realistic. Besides, I have always viewed spies as " squads" who would kill the guards guarding the gate and then opening them..

they might be overpowered, but unrealistic? no, since it's a game

[mattfriend0]

what about troy the greeks manged to get the gates open of troy

[C-Rob]

And I thought you were going to complain about using them to even look around. Now THAT would make conquering gaul much, much more difficult, as there'd be soooooo many ambushes.

It doesn't bother me. I think it's actually better to use onagers though. yea it's slower, but in the end it's so much more awesome(thank you RS team for increasing their numbers to 5 per group!)

[King_Darius]

thank you RS team for increasing their numbers to 5 per group!

yeah, i thank you guys too!!!!

[Acid Dent]

And I thought you were going to complain about using them to even look around. Now THAT would make conquering gaul much, much more difficult, as there'd be soooooo many ambushes.

It doesn't bother me. I think it's actually better to use onagers though. yea it's slower, but in the end it's so much more awesome(thank you RS team for increasing their numbers to 5 per group!)

It doens't bother me either, it's just that I always know I can blitz through the game because there's a simple way to do it. Spy = No gates.
Not using spies feels almost like cheating to make the game harder.

Meh...I see it as a game, so it doesn't have to be realistic. Besides, I have always viewed spies as " squads" who would kill the guards guarding the gate and then opening them..

they might be overpowered, but unrealistic? no, since it's a game

That's what I'm suggesting, make it so you need a squad of spies to perform that kind of mission.
Yes they are overpowered. I always imagined them bearing a heavy conscience, when they get into town and see daily urban life, people going about their business, children running and laughing... they think to themselves "these people will all be dead by sun-up". And after retirement, they tell their kids "I let them in and slaughter everyone. entire countries fell because of me. *sob*)

[DoogansQuest]

It doens't bother me either, it's just that I always know I can blitz through the game because there's a simple way to do it. Spy = No gates.
Not using spies feels almost like cheating to make the game harder.



That's what I'm suggesting, make it so you need a squad of spies to perform that kind of mission.
Yes they are overpowered. I always imagined them bearing a heavy conscience, when they get into town and see daily urban life, people going about their business, children running and laughing... they think to themselves "these people will all be dead by sun-up". And after retirement, they tell their kids "I let them in and slaughter everyone. entire countries fell because of me. *sob*)

I would imagine that a good spy would have a hard time finding any work if they carried with them a conscience so morally centered. Just saying...

[Acid Dent]

I would imagine that a good spy would have a hard time finding any work if they carried with them a conscience so morally centered. Just saying...

It's all about priorities, Doogan. Sometimes you just can't make the right choice. Suppose the spy is compromised in some way, maybe he's been sentenced to the cross or the arena, then the higher ups recognize his skills, give him a conditional reprieve, and he becomes a turncoat traitor...or maybe they got his family held hostage in a slave camp, and he must betray his people to save them...
Man, this is turning into a fanfic or something...i'll stop now... You catch my drift...

[chaney]

You should wait around and see if Dvk or any of the team pick up on this ,
Very god feedback and no doubt the team will consider your opinion

[C-Rob]

yeah, they already nerfed assassins,...

[Leeham991]

This makes no sense...
Two words that prove that this makes no sense; BOILING OIL

[Acid Dent]

This makes no sense...
Two words that prove that this makes no sense; BOILING OIL

One word to put some sense: TIMING.

When the game starts, THERE IS NO BOILING OIL. It takes decades to upgrade walls to that level, and that's more than enough time to go on a blitzing spree through europe with a couple of stacks and a very experienced spy.

[C-Rob]

boiling oil is assuming one can't take the walls quick enough to have at least one gate in their favor before too much oil destroys their units. With zero turn recruitment and explosive populations and money coffers fit for xerxes, casualties are not really a concern.

[Leeham991]

Then you play by the house rules ffs.

It's simple if you use thought.

[Acid Dent]

Then you play by the house rules ffs.

It's simple if you use thought.

I am using thought. And I play by the house rules. And I still don't find the game hard enough.

Look, I can see you like spies the way they are, but I don't. I love RS, I want it to be as flawless as possible, and I think I'm on to something here. I'm just trying to hold this thread up until one of the team members reads it and gives me some insight. If this turns out to be a dead end, fine, we can just leave the spy mechanics as they are. Until then, I'd appreciate you keep the dissing to yourself.

[C-Rob]

or you can just choose not to... I reached imperial reforms and only hold Africa west of cyrene, southern spain, italy, and am just now conquering my way north to the Rhine with my legions. I'm purposely giving hte greeks plenty of time to build up though. Oh geeze it's going to be fun taking on the diadochi.

[Wolfshead]

Yes, I agree that RS is too easy. RS II is supposed to be harder though, and waiting for the AI to build up (only concentrating on building up your economy, not attacking for at least 50 turns etc.) does make the game more enjoyable.

[Brusilov]

The easiest way to make the game more of a challenge (if you find it too easy at the hardest difficulty level (H(campaign)/VH(battle)) is to introduce house rules - many people do.

If you want some ideas on the typical house rules to use the best place may be to look through some AARs as they are usually stated at the start of each (if they are used).

If you 'blitz' the game then you are not giving the AI time to build up their empires.

[King_Darius]

i normally wait 20-25 turns before expanding into other empires (excluding free people)