Resurrect some Heroes and make them more powerful - suggestion / idea

[Elessar789]

Well ... I want to premise that this is only an idea (so, the comments about it are welcome ).
I've already sent this my idea to Jean = A = Luc via private message, to have an his opinion about it.
And he has considered it as a interesting idea.
So, at the suggestion of Jean = A = Luc, I opened a thread on it.

Well, before describing my idea, I must describe briefly two submod that would be a part of my idea:

Some time ago I saw a submod who was able to make the elves and heroes almost "immortals", in the sense that they couldn't die of old age.
Then, with the 'Immortal Nazgul"submod, it could resurrect some of the characters, even if they die in battle.

So, now, I don't know if would be possible make compatible these two submod, in order to have the heroes of a precise faction for the entire duration of the campaign..
Or if perhaps, doing so, it could become impossible to totally destroy a faction because the hero would continue to resurrect.
But I think that could be a nice thing.

And now I describe better my idea:

- If the bodyguard of the general (that in this case will be the hero) was made invisible and very very weak (so that the enemy can kill them with just a shot or two), the general will seems to have the appearance of a single units.

- At this point, the general should be very very strong, with the features close to the maximum (or perhaps really at the maximum), so he can live for longer in battle.

- Then, if some heroes dies in battle, such for example Gandalf (and I say him because he would one of the few characters that would make sense to resurrect in case of death) , he will be "resurrected" by the "Immortal Nazgul" submod (modified specifically for the heroes, instead of the Nazgul), immediately after the end of the battle.
Instead, if they have not fought in battle, they remain alive for the duration of the campaign, thanks to the other submod.

Therefore, apart my idea on the creation of single units (that might be difficult to create or that might not like to all the players), briefly, in my idea I mean these things:

that some characters should be able to resurrect (such for example Gandalf or the Nazgul), and that the other heroes (but maintaining their mortality) should be made very very strong (at the end they are heroes,or not?? ), according to a precise scale of strength.
For example Gandalf the strongest, then Aragorn etc etc...

What do you think about it??

Thank you very much, and I’m sorry for the length of this my post.

[Ozzmosis]

This has been debated many times, but some people don't like the idea of having immortal, homeric heroes, as that would mean that you didn't even have to worry about them in battle, whereas, even in the books and movies, the heroes could be killed by normal means (eg amon hen, Boromir was pierced by a coupla arrows). Also, as for the single unit idea, the general has to have the same stats as the rest of the bodyguard, except for hp. Not to mention that the immortal nazgul doesn't resurrect the nazgul as such, but clones the original character, so it has none of the traits or ancillaries other than the defaults, and so it would be wierd to have a full star 20hp gandalf, have him die in a battle and then resurrect him with 5 stars or whatever he starts with.
I'm sorry, but godly heroes is not the answer, I don't think.

[Elessar789]

This has been debated many times, but some people don't like the idea of having immortal, homeric heroes, as that would mean that you didn't even have to worry about them in battle, whereas, even in the books and movies, the heroes could be killed by normal means (eg amon hen, Boromir was pierced by a coupla arrows). Also, as for the single unit idea, the general has to have the same stats as the rest of the bodyguard, except for hp. Not to mention that the immortal nazgul doesn't resurrect the nazgul as such, but clones the original character, so it has none of the traits or ancillaries other than the defaults, and so it would be wierd to have a full star 20hp gandalf, have him die in a battle and then resurrect him with 5 stars or whatever he starts with.
I'm sorry, but godly heroes is not the answer, I don't think.

Well .. everyone is free to have his opinions (and I repeat, comments are welcome) ...

Anyway, about the "resurrection" ..

well .. but Gandalf has his "mission" to fulfill in the Middle Earth ... He can't afford to die

and regarding to make the heroes more powerful?? Making them deserving of the name that they bear??

Yes,maybe I exaggerated saying to increase the features of the heroes to the maximum (I admit) ... but I think it would be nice make them more powerful ..
I think this could be an argument to be taken into account, don't you think??

Thanks anyway for having reply me.

[Ozzmosis]

Well .. everyone is free to have his opinions (and I repeat, comments are welcome) ...

Anyway, about the "resurrection" ..

well .. but Gandalf has his "mission" to fulfill in the Middle Earth ... He can't afford to die

and regarding to make the heroes more powerful?? Making them deserving of the name that they bear??

Yes,maybe I exaggerated saying to increase the features of the heroes to the maximum (I admit) ... but I think it would be nice make them more powerful ..
I think this could be an argument to be taken into account, don't you think??

Thanks anyway for having reply me.

np, but the thing is, the more powerful heroes you have, the less strategy based the game becomes, and more like an rpg, which total war is really not cut out for. in BFME, it was meant to be rts, but the strategy was nothing compared with TW and it quickly became much more hero-oriented in BFME 2. human sized figures just can't kill enough guys quickly enough to be a true force to be reckoned with, and then you have to think about real-world physics, so how many hits from an arrow would take him down, or would a single hit from a catapult in the head really kill him? hero warfare just wouldnt really work, I am afraid

[Elessar789]

np, but the thing is, the more powerful heroes you have, the less strategy based the game becomes, and more like an rpg, which total war is really not cut out for. in BFME, it was meant to be rts, but the strategy was nothing compared with TW and it quickly became much more hero-oriented in BFME 2. human sized figures just can't kill enough guys quickly enough to be a true force to be reckoned with, and then you have to think about real-world physics, so how many hits from an arrow would take him down, or would a single hit from a catapult in the head really kill him? hero warfare just wouldnt really work, I am afraid

I agree with the things that you are saying ...
but my idea is to create a submod, which then will be used by the players who think like me ...
not all the players will be forced to use it (I mean if ever someone will create it, obviously).

[PSIHOPAT]

I personally love idea for heroes.

Balrog for example is one the way,and many minds has search to find the answer to make them to come alone...not with all his family.

About one hero to be very dangerous....how dangerous can be?

Any successful blow against him drop down his hp,accelerated if the blows come from ap units if he have allot of armor.Also many hits will interrupt them,making them unable to hit.Those heroes will be unable to kill two units alone especially if they fight against two units like orc mauler.Without support from his army,no hero can defeat one army alone.

I think "interrupt" rate is affected by the size of mass or type of unit.
Trolls for example don't have this problem.

If the balrog will come with 0 chance to be interrupt from his blow and new heroes with the chance like any soldier,but with more hp and attack/def ... will be ok.

I saw one comment about the unreal resistance of heroes against many type of attacks.
My answer for that is > heroes(soldiers) don't have dodge animation to make them to jump for avoiding incoming blow from arrows,catapults...etc.

For the limited choice put at disposal by TW engine...this is a great idea.

+rep for you Elessar789

[Elessar789]

I personally love idea for heroes.
For the limited choice put at disposal by TW engine...this is a great idea.
+rep for you Elessar789

Thanks

About one hero to be very dangerous....how dangerous can be?

Well ,but my idea is to make them a little more stronger, but not making them like a "war machines" (also because it would be difficult ,if not impossible, to do).

Balrog for example is one the way,and many minds has search to find the answer to make them to come alone...not with all his family.

Yes, I agree. It would be wonderful.

But regarding the Balrog, unfortunately, King Kong had already written this:
"one man units are not possible. They would be possible if Balrogs would be "elephants" and if everyone would play one small unit sizes, but who would like to do that only because to have 1 one-man unit in the game? I surely won't force all players to do that because of one unit.
Furthermore, Tolkien was never specific how many Balrogs survived until the Third Age..."

For the strenght of the heroes, Gandalf Saruman and the Witch King(maybe?) should be the strongest ones.

I agree.

But i think that a heroes with features to maximum is not realist, we are not in battle for middle earth 2!

Yes,it's true. You're right.
But I believe that heroes should really be heroes. And not be only slightly stronger than the other units. Certainly should not be like gods, but anyway, more stronger.

Think at this...
If a catapult hits the invisible "guys" what would happen? You will most probably see their shape burning...

My idea regarding to create a single unit (making the bodyguard invisible), is the minor part of my idea, as I said before, because it could not like to everyone and could be difficult to realize (also for the problems that you are writing) ...

More than anything, in my idea I mean that some characters should be able to resurrect (in the way that I have described, if it may be possible to do), and that the other heroes (but maintaining their mortality) should be made more strong according to a precise scale of strength.

[Maca]

I would like individual heroes (with invisible guards), but one MAJOR problem with individual ones is this:
Have you ever had a general surrounded? If you have then you'll know what I'm talking about. The hero will be surrounded and take lots of hits.
"Fine" you might say, "their HP will allow them to take it and then kill the atackers with ease."
Sadly, not true in M2TW. What WILL happen is that they will go through the wounded animations again and again and again and again......................................................and again, until they finally die.
The only thing that I can think of is that trolls don't do the wounded animations, so I'm thinking that their skeleton animation is different to normal infantry and so possibly doesn't have these animations.

As for the invisible guards, I made some playable for a while in custom battles (along with the hero), and they just don't work, even when very weak, they will hold a while against most foes, and so it is clear that they are there. Another indication of their presence is when you hold right click and drag, selecting the formation, any that are left will have a place in the formation and that will show.

I also don't think that the ressurection of heroes is that good of an idea (apart from Nazgul and Gandalf - though he only the once.) What happens if you capture, say, Aragorn, and execute him, then, ten turns later, you come across him and his almost twenty hitpoints again? I would be very annoyed, as I would think that I had got rid of him.

In the end I suppose that really I think that the way heroes are implemented now is the best way to do it, but not everyone will agree.

Edit: Damn, just seen that most of my points have already been mentioned.

[zorro59]

Think at this...
If a catapult hits the invisible "guys" what would happen? You will most probably see their shape burning...

[PSIHOPAT]

It is guarded by few harmless ghost.

As for "ghost"...they will be just in the first battle if replacement rate of the hero "guards" is hugely increased.



It is a very small "problem" that....for me...

It is important what benefit can be after this change.

And there are few very big and lore accurate benefit ... balrog is just one....heroes come alone...

[Mac-Picsou]

For the strenght of the heroes, gandalf saruman and the withch king(maybe?) should be the strongest ones.
But i think that a heroes with features to maximum is not realist, we are not in battle for middle earth 2!

The "resurection" of heroes is a good idea i think, but we should call that "recover his strenght"(after been hurtly blessed).

[PSIHOPAT]

I would like individual heroes (with invisible guards), but one MAJOR problem with individual ones is this:
Have you ever had a general surrounded? If you have then you'll know what I'm talking about. The hero will be surrounded and take lots of hits.
"Fine" you might say, "their HP will allow them to take it and then kill the atackers with ease."
Sadly, not true in M2TW. What WILL happen is that they will go through the wounded animations again and again and again and again......................................................and again, until they finally die.
The only thing that I can think of is that trolls don't do the wounded animations, so I'm thinking that their skeleton animation is different to normal infantry and so possibly doesn't have these animations.

As for the invisible guards, I made some playable for a while in custom battles (along with the hero), and they just don't work, even when very weak, they will hold a while against most foes, and so it is clear that they are there. Another indication of their presence is when you hold right click and drag, selecting the formation, any that are left will have a place in the formation and that will show.

I also don't think that the ressurection of heroes is that good of an idea (apart from Nazgul and Gandalf - though he only the once.) What happens if you capture, say, Aragorn, and execute him, then, ten turns later, you come across him and his almost twenty hitpoints again? I would be very annoyed, as I would think that I had got rid of him.

In the end I suppose that really I think that the way heroes are implemented now is the best way to do it, but not everyone will agree.

Edit: Damn, just seen that most of my points have already been mentioned.

I want to say...i am not agree with this angle of view because:

1 every unit must have weak and strong points for the balance and realism in the game...true,limited...but must be

2 every special unit human/elven/dwarf/hero, unit can be very powerful but not undefeated...being able to kill hundreds or thousand soldiers alone =>one army

3 if the heroes will be made without weak points will be the most powerful weapon...even more than trolls or balrog or sauron,because heroes are many and balrog/sauron unique

4 if the heroes remain with his slashing animation,they will remain very dangerous if they have minimal support from friendly units

5 such heroes can be very useful at walls or bridges(attack/defend) supported,but must be avoided situation to be caught alone.

Strong/Weak =>balance

It is fair enough i think.

[Elessar789]

I repeat that, seeing the problems related to the possible realization of individual units, my idea can be summarized as the creation of an ability for some heroes that gives them the possibility to resuscitate (like Gandalf and the Nazgul ... but only these heroes!!!) and make the other heroes a little stronger ...
I repeat (as I have written several times in this thread), not unbeatable ... but just a little stronger ... That is all

[Eomer_Rohan001]

I repeat that, seeing the problems related to the possible realization of individual units, my idea can be summarized as the creation of an ability for some heroes that gives them the possibility to resuscitate (like Gandalf and the Nazgul ... but only these heroes!!!) and make the other heroes a little stronger ...
I repeat (as I have written several times in this thread), not unbeatable ... but just a little stronger ... That is all

It would be nice enable to some heroes to having the possibility to resurrect.
And I agree that they should be made more powerful. Even if,maybe,only slightly.

[Maca]

I repeat that, seeing the problems related to the possible realization of individual units, my idea can be summarized as the creation of an ability for some heroes that gives them the possibility to resuscitate (like Gandalf and the Nazgul ... but only these heroes!!!) and make the other heroes a little stronger ...
I repeat (as I have written several times in this thread), not unbeatable ... but just a little stronger ... That is all

Oh, yes, this is good. Maybe Gandalf should only come back once? How would you make them stronger, increase the number of hitpoints in their bio's?

[Elessar789]

Oh, yes, this is good. Maybe Gandalf should only come back once? How would you make them stronger, increase the number of hitpoints in their bio's?

Oh, well ....
honestly I don't know if allow to Gandalf to have the ability to resuscitate only one time, or several times ... the players will decide this detail ..
but for sure, the Nazgul can resuscitate always (no living man can kill them [but a woman yes]) ...

and regarding how make them more powerful ...
yes,more hit points, more attack and defense points ...
briefly, increase a bit all their features.

[Ozzmosis]

You do all know that in RR/RC when Gandalf the Grey dies, Gandalf the White appears for Gondor, with a dol amroth bodyguard?

[Maca]

You do all know that in RR/RC when Gandalf the Grey dies, Gandalf the White appears for Gondor, with a dol amroth bodyguard?

You do know that not everyone uses RR/RC?

[Ozzmosis]

You do know that not everyone uses RR/RC?

Fair enough, I rephrase my statement:
Hey, you know that in RR/RC when Gandalf the Grey dies, Gandalf the White appears for Gondor, with a dol amroth bodyguard?I think that that is probably enough of a resurrection for Gandalf. As for Resurrection, only people like Glorfindel and Gandalf were resurrected, after sacrificing themselves, fighting balrogs. Maybe something could be implemented that only if the hero dies in heroic victories or close defeats can they be resurrected?

[Elessar789]

Fair enough, I rephrase my statement:
Hey, you know that in RR/RC when Gandalf the Grey dies, Gandalf the White appears for Gondor, with a dol amroth bodyguard?I think that that is probably enough of a resurrection for Gandalf.

Well, I didn't know that in RR/RC Gandalf can resuscitate as Gandalf the White ... I don't use RR/RC ...

As for Resurrection, only people like Glorfindel and Gandalf were resurrected, after sacrificing themselves, fighting balrogs. Maybe something could be implemented that only if the hero dies in heroic victories or close defeats can they be resurrected?

Yes, maybe also this your idea might be nice ... but I don't know if it could be easy to realize.