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  1. #1
    Jexiel's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Kenyan Government "Environmental" Oppression

    Here we have an excellent example of a government creating a problem, finding a "solution", and creating a new problem while perpetuating the previous problem. I hate saying this, but in this particular account Ronald Reagan was correct (I still think he is an ignorant caveman).

    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/15/wo...a.html?_r=1&hp
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gettleman for NY Times
    Forest People May Lose Home in Kenyan Plan By JEFFREY GETTLEMAN
    Published: November 14, 2009

    MARASHONI, Kenya — With the stroke of a pen, the last of Kenya’s honey hunters may soon be homeless.

    Since time immemorial, the Ogiek have been Kenya’s traditional forest dwellers. They have stalked antelope with homemade bows, made medicine from leaves and trapped bees to produce honey, the golden elixir of the woods. They have struggled to survive the press of modernity, and many times they have been persecuted, driven from their forests and belittled as “dorobo,” a word meaning roughly people with no cattle. Somehow, they have always managed to survive.

    Now, though, the little-known Ogiek, among East Africa’s last bona fide hunters and gatherers, face their gravest test yet. The Kenyan government is gearing up to evict tens of thousands of settlers, illegal or not, from the Mau Forest, the Ogiek’s ancestral home and a critical water source for this entire country. The question is: Will the few thousand remaining Ogiek be given a reprieve or given the boot?

    “Tell Obama and his men to help us,” pleaded Daniel M. Kobei, an Ogiek leader, who still seems almost stunned that the Ogiek may have to leave a forest they have battled for decades to conserve. “It’s not that we’re special, but this forest is our home.”

    No doubt the Mau Forest is crucial. It is — or more accurately, used to be — a thick, staggeringly beautiful forest in western Kenya, capturing the rains and the mist and, in turn, feeding more than a dozen lakes and rivers across the region, even contributing to the flow of the Nile.

    But in the past 15 years, because of ill-planned settlement schemes (the government essentially handed out chunks of forest to cronies), 25 percent of the trees have been wiped out. Much of the forest is now simply meadow. The Ogiek say there are fewer antelope and bees. They constantly use the Kiswahili word “haribika,” which means spoiled. Scientists say the environmental destruction has led to flash floods, micro-climate change, soil erosion and dried up lakes.

    The results were painfully obvious this summer when East Africa was hit by one of the worst droughts in years. In Nairobi, Kenya’s capital, the water taps went dry for weeks. And because Kenya gets a lot of electricity from hydropower, the water shortage meant blackouts, which many Kenyans believe contributed to the recent spike in crime and unemployment.

    Suddenly, the Kenyan government seemed to spring into action, commissioning hefty environmental reports and insisting on ejecting all settlers from the Mau Forest so that the government could plant millions of trees and get the country’s water sources churning again. But the sudden environmental altruism has bred suspicion as well. Many Ogiek wonder if Kenyan politicians, notorious as among the world’s most corrupt, are driven by another kind of green.

    “The government wants that forest for economic reasons, not conservation reasons,” said Towett Kimaiyo, an Ogiek leader. “The only people who are going to benefit are the saw-millers.”

    Almost as if to prove his point, beyond the bird chirps and cow bells tinkling across the smooth green hills was a different noise, a deeper, steadier noise, like a growl: bulldozers, many of them. Upon closer inspection, it was clear that timber companies are continuing to chew up large tracts of the Mau, knocking down giant trees and turning them into doors and plywood for export.

    “I don’t want to talk about that,” said Julius Kavita, this area’s district commissioner, when asked what was going on.

    Mr. Kavita said it was “complicated” and left it at that. But Kenyan environmental groups contend that powerful politicians control the timber companies, just as they control the dairies, the tea farms and other engines of Kenya’s economy.

    To the Ogiek, all this is sadly familiar. Though they are among the oldest communities in East Africa, many were marched off their land by British colonists in the 1930s and herded into “native reserves” where countless Ogiek died from diseases they had no natural resistance to, like malaria. The British felled their forests and planted pine trees, good for commercial logging, though in the Ogiek’s eyes, for little else.

    The persecution continued after Kenya’s independence in 1963, with the Kenyan police burning down Ogiek huts to drive the people out of the woods. In the 1990s, the government began handing out thousands of acres in the Mau Forest to political friends, which squeezed the Ogiek even further. The Ogiek sued in Kenyan courts, and the Ford Foundation helped pay their legal bills, but their forest continued to melt away.

    Mr. Kavita said the Ogiek, compared with the outside settlers who have chopped down trees to make cornfields, were “so kind to the forest.” But he was noncommittal on whether the Ogiek would get a special exemption from the planned evictions.

    Nowadays, many of the same people who used to derisively refer to Ogiek as dorobo are claiming to be Ogiek themselves, “Ogiek originals,” in the hope they might get a break, too.

    This could be a problem because the Ogiek are not great record keepers. Recent reports indicate that 8 of 10 Ogiek cannot read. Their total population is estimated at 5,000 to 20,000, many of them balancing their traditions with the trappings of modern life. It is not uncommon to see an Ogiek man with a quiver of eagle feather arrows in one fist and a cellphone in the other.

    “I have one question,” said an Ogiek boy in a village near Marashoni. “Will the government evict us or not?”

    Another young man tramped off into the woods to check a honey trap at the top of a tall tree. He was carrying a smoking coconut — “to make the bees sleep,” he explained — and wearing an antelope skin pouch and a pair of muddy sneakers. The last thing he did before shimmying up the bark and disappearing into the leaves was to kick off his shoes, a symbol of the world he was leaving behind, however fleetingly.


    The Kenyan government could have easily just passed a law prohibiting or regulating logging while at the same time employing the Ogiek in reforestation and conservation efforts since it benefits everyone but especially the Ogiek. Instead, the Kenyan government prefers to implement a drastic law that benefits no one but itself, all in the name of "envitonmentalism."

    Environmentalism used as an excuse to extend and/or expand governmental power. Will we be experiencing the same or a larger effect in the Western world? Are we willing to radically alter our lifestyles in the name of government-sponsored environmentalism?
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  2. #2

    Default Re: Kenyan Government "Environmental" Oppression

    Wow, that's staggering ignorance on your part. What's going on here is that loggers are causing erosion and droughts in the rest of the country - threatening another great famine as crops fail.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8057316.stm

    I have to say it's disgusting you're happy to use the livelihoods and lives of thousands as a football for your political bug bear.

  3. #3
    Jexiel's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Re: Kenyan Government "Environmental" Oppression

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrets54 View Post
    Wow, that's staggering ignorance on your part. What's going on here is that loggers are causing erosion and droughts in the rest of the country - threatening another great famine as crops fail.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8057316.stm

    I have to say it's disgusting you're happy to use the livelihoods and lives of thousands as a football for your political bug bear.
    Nice strawman.

    Please notice how the NY Times article explains the situation.

    Quote Originally Posted by NY Times
    “The government wants that forest for economic reasons, not conservation reasons,” said Towett Kimaiyo, an Ogiek leader. “The only people who are going to benefit are the saw-millers.”

    Almost as if to prove his point, beyond the bird chirps and cow bells tinkling across the smooth green hills was a different noise, a deeper, steadier noise, like a growl: bulldozers, many of them. Upon closer inspection, it was clear that timber companies are continuing to chew up large tracts of the Mau, knocking down giant trees and turning them into doors and plywood for export.
    The Kenyan government wants to evict a group of people from their ancestral homelands because it wants to protect forests being destroyed by companies authorized by the Kenyan government itself to do so.

    Do you find this acceptable?
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  4. #4

    Default Re: Kenyan Government "Environmental" Oppression

    Quote Originally Posted by Jexiel View Post
    Nice strawman.

    Please notice how the NY Times article explains the situation.



    The Kenyan government wants to evict a group of people from their ancestral homelands because it wants to protect forests being destroyed by companies authorized by the Kenyan government itself to do so.

    Do you find this acceptable?
    I find it to be a lie. Ancestral homelands my arse.

    "Their village of Sisiyan, aka "Sierra Leone", was created when land within the southern Maasai Mau forest reserve was illegally purchased, subdivided and sold on to settlers.

    Many of these so-called "invaders" were unaware that their plots were "irregular" and their title deeds "bogus". "

    And no, the Kenyan Government needs to maintain the forest in order to guarantee a water supply.

  5. #5
    Wilder's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Kenyan Government "Environmental" Oppression

    So, let me get this right, what is happening here, is an agressive, oppressive action on the part of the Kenyan government in the name of environmentalism, and yet is not environmentally sound, which the article readily admits, and some how this is environmentalism's doing?

    By that rational Freedom is bad because it was used as a slogan by various governments, which, in fact decreased freedom. Talk about convoluted reasoning.

    Subtract environmentalism from this situation, and the Government would continue to do exactly what it is, minus one obstacle to rationalize.
    Last edited by Wilder; November 15, 2009 at 04:36 AM.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Kenyan Government "Environmental" Oppression

    Strawman.

    I never implied environmentalism was the cause. My questions referred to governments using environmentalism as a tool to consolidate power.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrets54 View Post
    I find it to be a lie. Ancestral homelands my arse.

    "Their village of Sisiyan, aka "Sierra Leone", was created when land within the southern Maasai Mau forest reserve was illegally purchased, subdivided and sold on to settlers.

    Many of these so-called "invaders" were unaware that their plots were "irregular" and their title deeds "bogus". "

    And no, the Kenyan Government needs to maintain the forest in order to guarantee a water supply.
    They've been there for at least 150 years and it does not seem they are the ones causing the damage. These people are hunter-gatherers. That means they live off the forest. It is not in their best interest to destroy it. The best way to maintain that forest is to keep those people there protecting it.
    Last edited by Jexiel; November 15, 2009 at 04:43 AM.
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    Wilder's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Kenyan Government "Environmental" Oppression

    Quote Originally Posted by Jexiel View Post
    I never implied environmentalism was the cause. My questions referred to governments using environmentalism as a tool to consolidate power.
    it amounts to the same thing. Saying otherwise is an exercise in dishonesty.

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    Default Re: Kenyan Government "Environmental" Oppression

    Quote Originally Posted by Wilder View Post
    it amounts to the same thing. Saying otherwise is an exercise in dishonesty.
    Seeing as you consider yourself an environmentalist, I can see how this would be a chip on your shoulder.

    In this particular case, an excuse is being used (environmental concerns) to drive policy decisions that do not have any environmental outcomes. Care to point out the dishonesty?
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    Default Re: Kenyan Government "Environmental" Oppression

    Quote Originally Posted by Jexiel View Post
    Seeing as you consider yourself an environmentalist, I can see how this would be a chip on your shoulder.

    In this particular case, an excuse is being used (environmental concerns) to drive policy decisions that do not have any environmental outcomes. Care to point out the dishonesty?
    Given the (fairly ludicrous) precedence of accusing environmentalism, of all things, of neo-colonialism, I think the implication here is fairly obvious, accuse me of paranoia if you wish.

    That said, yes, governments using what ever nice fuzzy phrase that is popular in the west to trumpet, so they can get away with exploitation, is nothing new, not unique to environmentalism, nor likely to end any time soon. If that is what you wanted to hear, there it is, there is certainly no escaping it. the disposal of toxic sludge in Venezuela comes to mind, where they spread out waist products of oil refineries over the dirt roads in the jungle in order to "keep the dust down", and for other "environmental concerns" despite that it poisons the water, and effectively starves out the hunter-gatherers.

    Of course, that is not so much a criticism of environmentalism, as much as a cautionary tale to those who consider themselves environmentalists to not be superficial and romantic.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Kenyan Government "Environmental" Oppression

    Do you know what strawman means?

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    Jexiel's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Re: Kenyan Government "Environmental" Oppression

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrets54 View Post
    Do you know what strawman means?
    Assigning a weak, easily defeatable argument to your opponent and destroying it knowing that your opponent will have difficulty defending said argument thus misrepresenting his/her original views.

    Like a strawman. Please do not insult yourself.
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  12. #12

    Default Re: Kenyan Government "Environmental" Oppression

    Quote Originally Posted by Jexiel View Post
    Assigning a weak, easily defeatable argument to your opponent and destroying it knowing that your opponent will have difficulty defending said argument thus misrepresenting his/her original views.

    Like a strawman. Please do not insult yourself.
    Incorrect. A strawman is when you bring up an irrelevant argument. Since I pointed out the Government is doing this out of concern for drought etc. and that most the farmers were illegal settlers, not people on "ancestral homelands" I do not see how that is irrelevant.

    Now, shouting strawman at everything? That, ironically enough, is a strawman.

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Kenyan Government "Environmental" Oppression

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrets54 View Post
    Wow, that's staggering ignorance on your part. What's going on here is that loggers are causing erosion and droughts in the rest of the country - threatening another great famine as crops fail.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8057316.stm

    I have to say it's disgusting you're happy to use the livelihoods and lives of thousands as a football for your political bug bear.
    The original claim.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrets54 View Post
    Incorrect. A strawman is when you bring up an irrelevant argument. Since I pointed out the Government is doing this out of concern for drought etc. and that most the farmers were illegal settlers, not people on "ancestral homelands" I do not see how that is irrelevant.

    Now, shouting strawman at everything? That, ironically enough, is a strawman.
    The revised claim.

    http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-a-st...n-argument.htm
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
    http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html
    http://www.fallacyfiles.org/strawman.html

    Bonus point: bringing up the "strawman debate" itself a strawman.

    Great job.
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  14. #14

    Default Re: Kenyan Government "Environmental" Oppression

    Honestly, do you not realise that forcing a discussion on what a strawman is (and no, it turns out you have no clue) is a strawman?

    Address my facts that Kenya needs to do this to guard agriculture and that the settlers are there illegally.

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    Jexiel's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Re: Kenyan Government "Environmental" Oppression

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrets54 View Post
    Honestly, do you not realise that forcing a discussion on what a strawman is (and no, it turns out you have no clue) is a strawman?

    Address my facts that Kenya needs to do this to guard agriculture and that the settlers are there illegally.
    Yes, yes. You are correct. I know nothing.

    Back to the topic:

    My original post concerned a group of people called the Ogiek. These group of people have lived in Kenya's Mau Forest since "time immemorial" according to the NY Times. Kenya's government wants to evict these people out of their homelands claiming "environmental concerns."

    At this point, you introduced an article about "loggers and farmers" loosely related to the original topic (hey! a strawman!) . Your article only references the Ogiek once:
    Quote Originally Posted by BBC News
    At the time, much of these excised land parcels were promised to Ogiek peoples, the original forest dwellers. But the title deeds ended up largely in the hands of local officials and incoming settlers.
    Quite irrelevant because if these people are there illegally the government has a right to force them out. Simple, no?

    The Ogiek, on the other hand, are hunter-gatherers, not farmers. They have occupied these forests a long time. The government has no right evicting them.
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  16. #16

    Default Re: Kenyan Government "Environmental" Oppression

    It's not loosely related, it's precisely the same story, in depth!

  17. #17
    Jexiel's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Re: Kenyan Government "Environmental" Oppression

    Different stories. The BBC is talking about non-Ogiek farmers. The Times is reporting on the Ogiek people, hunter-gatherers. The background is similar: Mau Forest, government removing people, environmental disasters.

    The Ogiek population is 20,000. The farmers are 20,000 families (assuming 3 per family, 60,000 people).
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