5 Swedish soldiers injuries and their Afghan interpreter killed. German ambulance helicopter aborts rescue mission

[Adar]

This make me incredibly angry. A few days ago 5 Swedish soldiers were injured (2 severly) and their Afghan interpreter died while waiting for rescue. An American Blackhawk carried out the rescue more than 2 hours after the IED attack took place and support was called for. The Swedish military today revealed why the rescue took so long and why an American Blackhawk carried out the MEDEVAC despite the fact that the German army have agreed to provide medevac for the Swedish-Finnish ISAF unit. Previous reports claimed that the two German helicopters never left base. Personally I find this new information even more worrying.

Afghanistan

The reason that the German helicopters could not rescue the Swedish soldiers injured after the bombing last Wednesday was that they were shot at and forced to turn back to base.

- Two German helicopters were on their way to assist the Swedes, but they were shot at and hit by machine gun fire from the ground, "said Lieutenant Colonel Manfred Gronewold, Defense Attaché at the German embassy in Stockholm.

The German helicopters stationed in Kunduz, an hour's flight from the place where one local interpreter was killed and five Swedes wounded.

Request to use the helicopters was sent out 13:39. But no helicoptre arrived until 15:42 when American Blackhawk helicoptres arrived.

The German helicopters would have arrived earlier, but when they were shot at the pilots decided to return to base. When they arrived four bullet holes where discovered in an extra tank.

When the German ambulance helicopters were forced to suspend the rescue effort. The American helicopters were called in.

Source

One helicopter is hit by 4 bullets in a non-vital spot and they cancel the whole mission? It is fascinating to see how the German force honours their agreement to carry out medevacs for the Swedish and Finnish force. Apparently the agreement only apply to situations where no one might get hurt. It would be nice to know if there are any other limitations so that we don't get surprised the next time when they tell us that German pilots only land at hardened surfaces or maybe only pick up people who do no bleed (the pilots might get HIV or faint)

[Mcgruder]

Dont go too hard on the Germans, they have to operate under completely insane Rules of engagement. I have head that before returning fire, German troops have to shout a warning in English and Pashtoon stating who they are and that they are part of the UN force.
So I wouldn't mind betting that they have to abort helicopter missions if they come under fire.

[Phier]

Dont go too hard on the Germans, they have to operate under completely insane Rules of engagement. I have head that before returning fire, German troops have to shout a warning in English and Pashtoon stating who they are and that they are part of the UN force.
So I wouldn't mind betting that they have to abort helicopter missions if they come under fire.

This...can't be true.

[Barry Ferguson]

This...can't be true.

It was true, but I don't know if it still is. Germany was briefly much more aggressive in it's pursuit of the war, until someone bombed a hundred Afghan civilians

[justicar5]

This...can't be true.

given that the rules put on German units abroad, very possibly

http://insurgencyresearchgroup.wordp...ensed-to-kill/

[ELITEOFKINGWARMAN8]

Dont go too hard on the Germans, they have to operate under completely insane Rules of engagement. I have head that before returning fire, German troops have to shout a warning in English and Pashtoon stating who they are and that they are part of the UN force.
So I wouldn't mind betting that they have to abort helicopter missions if they come under fire.

Yup. God forbid they don't follow the rules of war!

[eggthief]

They were probably intoxicated with alcohol.

[Downey]

Well your welcome for at least being rescued in the end.

[Adar]

Well your welcome for at least being rescued in the end.

I consider it to be one of the guaranteed benefits of support the most powerful nation on earth in one of it's wars .

And for the record "I" will hopefully never have to rely on US medevac. A few years I actually applied for a mission supposed to go to Afghanistan and Kosovo. Sadly it ended with a double fail*, they turned me down and the unit never went to Afghanistan and Kosovo . I support the Afghanistan war and it would have been nice to do a (small**) effort.

*Administrative error caused by my training officer not liking me and my company commander (who lead the unit) liking me. The company commander didn't have time to reverse the decision until after I had been turned down. At the time of reapplication it was already obvious that we wouldn't go to Afghanistan so I declined to reapply.

**Small becuase my tour would only have been 2 weeks to do some special surveys in the Swedish area of operations. It would be far less than what other soliders do but it's the best I can provide due to my specialty and the Swedish system for international missions.

[Exarch]

this has FUBAR written all over it

also proof how wonderful the EU defence force really is

[justicar5]

this has FUBAR written all over it

also proof how wonderful the EU defence force really is

or NATO....

[Ahlerich]

ok first of all german soldiers are judged by civil courts (same law that applies to policemen at home)
this makes it really hard for the soldiers to decide when to fire as if civilians are hit they will get harsher punnishment. way harsher then if they would be judged after military law. i find this highly disturbing but it is how things are right now.
it is our history which lead to this weird situation also until a couple years ago it was forbidden by our constitution to move the army outside the country. to only use it to defend germany. also -> because ww2.

2nd i would like to know what helicopters they sent for the rescue and if they are acually armed.
the german army is not allowed to attack, they are of course allowed to return fire in general. however as out mission is officially a rebuilding mission i could imagine that the helicopters might have been not armed. i have no clue about this but i d simply like to know what helicopters we sent for the pick up, what the orders were and why they have been given.

this should be clear before discussing the issue.

whatever the reasons for this ugly situation is it is definately not somebody in the budeswehr saying "meh, screw the swedes"

It was true, but I don't know if it still is. Germany was briefly much more aggressive in it's pursuit of the war, until someone bombed a hundred Afghan civilians

its important to realize that the oberst that ordered this is in deep and will be punnished hard more likely. while soldiers from other countries are not punnished by civilian law.

[Captain Jin]

ok first of all german soldiers are judged by civil courts (same law that applies to policemen at home)
this makes it really hard for the soldiers to decide when to fire as if civilians are hit they will get harsher punnishment. way harsher then if they would be judged after military law. i find this highly disturbing but it is how things are right now.

That is completely irrelevant. We're not talking about the Germans failing to fire on their attackers. We're talking about them bugging out RTBing after taking a few shots to their birds. That's not acceptable for CASEVAC choppers. Your point isn't valid for the argument.

Anyways, Germany needs to cut out it's stupid ass rules and get back to it's warfighting roots. It's in your blood Germans, just a generation or two forgot it, but the DNA is still there! Give in! Everyone would be better off (cept the Taliban). There isn't going to be another damn Nazi Germany for crying out loud.

It's not uncommon for birds to bug out though, it's not hard to shoot down a helicopter. It's just that our boys are used to it so they are naturally going to be more daring with CASEVACs. When they used to teach us how to call in a 9-line they used to tell us not to tell the inbound helos that the LZ was hot(one of the lines you are to relay enemy contact), because they might abort and leave our casualty.

Plus you know, if you're a German, do you want to risk your ass for a Swede? Not saying it's right. But there's a disconnect there. Where an American pilot would likely risk his life more for an American grunt on the ground, it could be different with different nationalities.

[Carach]

this has FUBAR written all over it

also proof how wonderful the EU defence force really is

eu DEFENCE force.

doesnt have any part in this, but thought id put out the answer to ur comment that lies within ur own post.

at least the american helis are prepared to go in, daily, under fire to medivac people in need of assistence. Lets not forget the guys that go with them to secure the immediate vicinity too.

[Azog 150]

^^I don't know about the German army but for example, on the rare occasion Britain can spare a chopper to pick up a wounded soldier, they are not armed (Usually being either Chinooks, Merlins or Puma's)

Not sure if its the same with other countries, but whether or not the chopper is armed doesn't really matter when doing a medevac.

[Mcgruder]

^^I don't know about the German army but for example, on the rare occasion Britain can spare a chopper to pick up a wounded soldier, they are not armed (Usually being either Chinooks, Merlins or Puma's)

Not sure if its the same with other countries, but whether or not the chopper is armed doesn't really matter when doing a medevac.

Sorry mate , but Pumas are not in Afgahnistan as they are too old and don't do hot and high conditions. Merlin is also not in theatre, but that's because they are brand new and the RAF dosen't want anyone shooting at them (and at 33 million quid a pop, they are probably the most expensive helicopters in the world).

That leaves the Chinooks, which are the most defensively armed aircraft in the RAF, (all those mini guns and stuff), these regulary do casualty evacuation, and are very good at it too, but using it in this role stops it being used in the role it was intended for, Heavy lift.

[s.rwitt]

Yup. God forbid they don't follow the rules of war!

Rules of war? What ****ing rules are you referring to?

[Azog 150]

^^The crazy German rules....

[s.rwitt]

So, they're the "German rules of war" then? And which rule states that if you are fired upon you must immediately run back to base?

[Azog 150]

So, they're the "German rules of war" then? And which rule states that if you are fired upon you must immediately run back to base?

Not sure. But it honestly wouldn't surprise me if there was such a rule for helicopter evacuations (Judging by some of their other Rules of Engagement anyway)....