Mordor Uruks vs. Isengard Uruk Hai...

[David93]

A Ranga is 38" inches. The term man-high is actually never applied in the writing to the Uruk Hai of Isengard AFAIK. They are described as Large. The term man high itself is a term relative to the Dunedain.(UT) Most men of middle Earth therefore being shorter than Dunedain would be termed nearly man high. The men of Thengal's house are specifically stated to be taller than most Rohirrim, the given reason, their foremother is Morwen of Lossarnach who actually hails from the area of Dol Amroth, an area noted for its Numenorean and slightly Elvish heritage.

The only time an Orc is specifically stated as nearly man-high is the orc-chief of Moria that stabs Frodo. This Orc is also the only orc that receives the adjective "huge", as well as some unique other descriptors.
Youll notice that in that chapter it is stated that "black uruks of mordor" are there, means this is likely to be a black ururk
Uruk Hai probably stood the height of ordinary or even smallish men given their use of mannish bows and though thicker and stronger than an average man, were not the height of Dunedain. Rohirrim infantry were on equal terms with them unless the Uruk Hai had an advantage in numbers. This I think is the point of the Uruk Hai of Isengard. This is a group of Orcs who exist in fair numbers, like too man and equal to man, in battle. Only the axe-wielding Orc-Men of Saruman described at the Battle of the Fords of Isen (UT) are likely to be man-high as the appellation huge is applied to them as well.

The Orcs of Mordor (Grishnakh), are wierd, twisted inherently more corrupt, they have a uniquely apelike quality about them. Mordor Uruks, are likely the basis of Tolkien's beast theory, in which the odd behavior at the black gate is manifested. Free standing orcs of the MM may run from battle but they do not slay themselves or gibber witlessly at the death of their Lord, they run to live then they avenge.

I believe that this subject is argue between those who like Isengard more and that's why believe that their uruks are superior and those who like Mordor more and they believe all uruks are somewhat equal.

So, let's just forget what we like and bring in clear facts from books.

It's certain that they are both called Uruk-hai so I think they are more or less equal. If there is anywhere stated in books that Isengard uruk-hai were superior in training, equipment and/or strength compared to Mordor uruk-hai in training, equipment and/or strength or there are hints that Mordor uruk-hai has poor equipment, training and/or are weaker then please quote it here and at least I might change my mind in this.

The Uruk-Hai is a term only ever used to describe isengard Uruk-hai. Mordor Uruks are always descriped as Black uruks of mordor or simply uruks.
if you find a quote that disagrees share

[Ngugi]

The Orcs of Mordor descripted their own Uruks as Uruk-Hai as well. This is from RotK, chapter The Land of Shadow. Sam and Frodo, who has left Cirith Ungol, overhears two Orcs trying to track the area looking for the intruders:

'Not much use are you, you little snufflers?' said the big orc. 'I reckon eyes are better than your snotty noses.'

'Then what have you seen with them?' snarled the other. 'Garn! You don't even know what you're looking for.'

'Whose blame's that?' said the soldier. 'Not mine. That comes from Higher Up. First they say it's a great Elf in bright armour, then it's a sort of small dwarf-man, then it must be a pack of rebel Uruk-hai; or maybe it's all the lot together.'

'Ar!' said the tracker. 'They've lost their heads, that's what it is. And some of the bosses are going to lose their skins too, I guess, if what I hear is true: Tower raided and all, and hundreds of your lads done in, and prisoner got away. If that's the way you fighters go on, small wonder there's bad news from the battles.'

As there is no logical reason to claim they should be talking about Isengardians, when there's been a battle between Orcs and Mordor Uruks a "moment" ago, we can state that Uruk-Hai included the Uruks of Mordor.

[David93]

Ok fair enough Ngugi moust have missed that bit
not going to argue with my own lore expert
have to say when reading i never seen a passage were the uruks were refered to as uruk-hai, guess i just missed that one

[Ngugi]

Found it out just now myself, so no worry hehe, nobody else seems to noted it either so we have all been in the same boat

[7UKMatt]

1, Both Mordor orcs and Isengard orcs are Uruk-hai or "orc folk".

2, Saruman (perhaps uniquely) also created half-orcs, referred to in the books as "goblin men".

3, Although we can debate the differences between Mordor and Isengard orcs (which were more-highly trained, which had the better equipment) until we're blue in the face, it is clear that a half-orc/goblin man is distinct from an ordinary orc. Presumably, the goblin men have some advantages over "pure" orcs - why else would Saruman breed them? See my previous posts in the thread for my speculations about this.

[muller227]

@David 93
You are correct, in that Gandalf states Mordor Uruks are there, I am not sure if the Orc chief is a Uruk of the Mordor variety though. His description in no way matches the description of Mordor Uruks, and he is far more powerful than any other Orc we see in the LotR. The description itself is strangely archaic in tone (note the eyes of this orc), and does not fit into the more normal descriptions we see in LotR, it borders on Demonic.

Letter 131 to Milton Waldman

"An attempt is made to include in it, and wind up, all the elements and motives that have preceded"
"Hardly a word in its 600,000 or more have been unconsidered"

I think the the fact that he use the term Huge-Orc instead of Uruk (after all Uruk is used in the same chapter) here is important, given the degeneration in ME that affects all things, I think we are looking at a more formidable type of Orc. A great-orc of Morgoth of the 1st age if you will(they were not commmon even then acting as Captains, like the slayer of Barahir) of which the Uruks are only an echo. No Uruk in the book not even Ugluk, is a match for a heroic man. This Orc clearly dominates Boromir, and one could argue even be superior to Aragorn, only the focus on the Ringbearer allows Aragorn to kill him. Also note the flash of flame that leaps up as he is slain, at first reading I thought that a product of Anduril, after reading a great deal of material afterwards I am only 50/50 on this, that flash never shows up as he killing dozens of orcs at Helm's Deep, though it gleams with white fire.

[knight who says nee]

I thought that Uruks were created by saruman by cross-breeding orcs and humans... so did mordor do the same? I have never heard of mordor uruks, I assumed the ones at the tower (the ones who capture frodo and samwise) were refugees from isengard or a gift from saruman.

[muller227]

I thought that Uruks were created by saruman by cross-breeding orcs and humans... so did mordor do the same? I have never heard of mordor uruks, I assumed the ones at the tower (the ones who capture frodo and samwise) were refugees from isengard or a gift from saruman.

Glance through the whole thread, there is a great deal of material that will answer most of the questions you have, many of the contributors are well versed in Tolkien Lore, diverse opinions give you much to choose from.

[Santeri]

3, Although we can debate the differences between Mordor and Isengard orcs (which were more-highly trained, which had the better equipment)

We don't need to debate anything if you show as were it says that in books All that I'm asking

[Derngar]

I know some of you don't agree on this, but atleast in the films(might also be in the books) The Uruk-Hai Look to be fast assembled, while the Uruks of Mordor seem to be lesser important to the core army, they seem like captains and maybe some higher soldiers of the army, they were lesser than Uruk Hai, thus them not being instantly send to war, they have seen the world, they know whats going on, they are alot smarter, their long lives they might also give them chance to have scavenged gondorian weapons and armour, making them better at combat. My edge would still go to Uruk-Hai after all the cons put to Uruks of Mordor, Uruk-Hai are still the stronger and bigger ones, with already good armour, these creatures don't need intelligence in combat, i don't think an uruk is going to think much how he is gonna kill someone, Uruk-Hai are born for war Uruks are born for war, they are always going to be brute force warriors, they will not use the "Skills" of most human soldiers, sure there are some skilled orcs and uruks but the core of them like to go more brutal and hack and slash kinda thing.
I think Uruk-Hai would win in that, especially the Berserkers in the movies(non-canon) They are said to be 7 feet tall and known to be rabid.

[Funeh]

Uruk-Hai are best and epic. I remember seeing Two Towers for the first time, I was scared as .

[Withwnar]

This thread was three years dead and the other one, Olog-hai vs Uruk-hai Berserkers, was five. We're discouraged from resurrecting old threads. And welcome to the forums.

[Arachir Galudirithon]

As Withwnar says, the thread is way too old to randomly drop in some posts.

Feel free to open a new thread with your thoughts on Uruk-hai and Olog-hai and Berserkers and others might discuss it wiht you but as far as these threads go, they will be CLOSED.

Garo arad vaer.