Mordor Uruks vs. Isengard Uruk Hai...

[Outlawstar15a2]

Ever since playing Third Age for the first time I have been blessed to be privied to links to many wonderous sites like LOTR Wiki and Encyclopedia of Arda. As I surf the web collecting info and keeping what I learn here in mind I get the strange sensation that Mordor Uruks were more numerous then Uruk Hai and stronger but less intelligent. Whereas Uruk Hai was smarter then Mordor Uruks yet less numerous yet blessed with more standardized equipment, armor, and weapons as well as training. And while it's unclear to me who would win in a straight fight it seems that, according to the in game Gondor faction summary, Mordor Orcs gave the Gondorians in Ithilien a hell of a run for their money before pulling back across the Anduin. So my questions are:

1.) Were Mordor Uruks part of the raiding parties that eventually led to the abandonment of Ithilien?

2.) Which were superior as a military force (which would be better soldiers in a war overall) Mordor Uruks or Isengard Uruk Hai?

3.) Why do the armies of Mordor have equipment that is basically scavenged and beaten up? If Mordor had superior industrial capabilities and larger hordes of slaves then Isengard why was Isengard the only one of the two main evil entities the one with a standardized military force?

[Warmaster Tibs]

1.) Were Mordor Uruks part of the raiding parties that eventually led to the abandonment of Ithilien?

2.) Which were superior as a military force (which would be better soldiers in a war overall) Mordor Uruks or Isengard Uruk Hai?

3.) Why do the armies of Mordor have equipment that is basically scavenged and beaten up? If Mordor had superior industrial capabilities and larger hordes of slaves then Isengard why was Isengard the only one of the two main evil entities the one with a standardized military force?

1.) Probly

2.) An Isengard Uruk just has better weapons and armor, maybe better straining because of there smaller numbers. There are alot of Mordor Uruks so if it was all of both sides Uruks vs eachother modor would win.

3.) Well your looking at a downside of Mordor's huge armys. If you have a ton of troops they are harder to equip to the same standard. They do have superior overall industry but not enough for "ALL" of the uruks and orcs. Most just wont get the best. In Isengards case there supply is greater then the demand so they can have a well equiped, standard army.

[JonSnow]

1. Dont know off the top of my head.

2. Uruk-hai of Isengard no contest... theyre almost as big as men and can actually go in sunlight without tiring... indeed they rarely tire or hunger. At least not the ones who capture Merry and Pippin.
3. This is a bit of a misconceptipion... the movies make the orcs equipment look worse than it might of been, it's hard to say.

[Maxamus]

Uruk hai!!! Pwn lol. But i have a question. What does the suffix hai meen. Because, as it seems to me uruk HAI being superior uruks, and olog HAI being superior trolls. I just wanted to offer this into the discussion, as im sure many of you have been wondering about this also. So if im correct on the suffix meening a superior breed, than thats another reason isengard is better. But who knows, it could simply meen armored, as both units decribed are well armored. Just wondering what tolkien was thinking haha

[Outlawstar15a2]

Uruk hai!!! Pwn lol. But i have a question. What does the suffix hai meen. Because, as it seems to me uruk HAI being superior uruks, and olog HAI being superior trolls. I just wanted to offer this into the discussion, as im sure many of you have been wondering about this also. So if im correct on the suffix meening a superior breed, than thats another reason isengard is better. But who knows, it could simply meen armored, as both units decribed are well armored. Just wondering what tolkien was thinking haha

I haven't been able to find a definitive answer but it probably means "High" as in "High" Elves (though we don't use Hai to refer to Elves) The word High in and of itself can and often is used to mean superior. As in High Court which is sometimes a syn for Supreme Court.

[Cyclops]

...

1.) Were Mordor Uruks part of the raiding parties that eventually led to the abandonment of Ithilien?
.

Undoubtedly. Orcs formed the major armies of Mordor AFAIK, and Sauron's forces attacked Osgiliath in the years leading up to the war of the Ring. However I think it was the return of Sauron and the coming forth of the Lord of the Nazgul (NFKATWK) that drove the people of Ithilien out.

...2.) Which were superior as a military force (which would be better soldiers in a war overall) Mordor Uruks or Isengard Uruk Hai?...

I guess the Uruk Hai were superior to evenm the big Mordor Uruks: they could stand sunlight better than ordinary orcs though their master was lesser in magic. Their equipment was better than regular Mordor or MM goblin gear. I imagine they were a higher echelon in Saruman's forces than any orc in Sauron's, but thats just my guess.

....3.) Why do the armies of Mordor have equipment that is basically scavenged and beaten up? If Mordor had superior industrial capabilities and larger hordes of slaves then Isengard why was Isengard the only one of the two main evil entities the one with a standardized military force?

In ROTK the "red eye" Mordor gear in Cirtih Ungol is characterised as crude, poorly made, ill fitting "hairy breeches" etc, but contrastingly the Morgul gear was a lot better, so Mordor stuff varied in quality.

At the seige of Minas Tirith it is the Morgul Host that is close against the walls: perhaps they were the more reliable troops with better kit given the hard job, while less reliable "Easterlings with axes, and Variags of Khand, Southrons in scarlet, and out of Far Harad black men like half-trolls" were kept back in Osgiliath? Of course the orcs in the seige were goaded forward heedless of loss, so they weren't that valued.

I think it likely Sauron had better servants than orcs and they had the better gear available (eg the black clad cavalry that nearly tramples Frodo and Sam as they escape Cirith Ungol, perhaps they are the same cavalry that accompany the Mouth of Sauron?). Likewise the Olog Hai may have had well made scale armour, although its unclear if that was actually their skin.

Also remember Sauron made Grond (or Grond 2, I guess we should say), and the Ring, so he was capable of some cool technology.

....3.) ...If Mordor had superior industrial capabilities and larger hordes of slaves then Isengard why was Isengard the only one of the two main evil entities the one with a standardized military force?

IIRC it doesn't say Isengard had standardised tech. There are various goblins in Saruman's service as well as Uruk Hai, half orcs etc. Saruman also feilded units of Dunlendings presumably armed in their national style.

However if his units were more standardised that is to be expected as they are recruited from a narrower cultural base (orcs, half orcs and wild men) and geographic region (Nan Curunir, Dunland) with one industrial centre (Orthanc) than Mordor (huge variety of orcs, trolls, fell beasts, southrons, Corsairs, Variags, Easterlings of a new sort, BNs from all the south, all the east, plus Mordor).

[k/t]

Uruk-Hai means Orc-folk. Olog-Hai means Troll-folk.

What are BNs?

[Kinnas]

What are BNs?

I'd imagine BN=Black Numenorean.

For the thread subject, the wikipedia page on Uruk Hai may be of interest, keeping in mind wikipedia's not always 100% accurate.

[Beregond]

In fact Uruks and Uruk-hai is the same word, just different forms of it, Tolkien said it himself.

1.Black Uruks appeared first in Ithilien IIRC, and that was indeed one of the reasons for abondoning it.

2.In the books it's not clear who was stronger. Movies give poor biased PJ's picture. I'd say the only difference was the ability of Isengard ones to withstand daylight, but Sauron always used a dark cloud to cover his armies, so pwned

on the other hand Saruman's Half-Orcs were stronger than Uruks IMHO

3. It was again the movie to form the image of a clone-army. but as Cyclops says Mordor has much more forces and divisions of troops, and it's possible that the best Uruks in Saruman's service came in standart equipment, cause it was made in Isengard only

[Shocked]

The Uruk Hai are stronger and have better armour, the Uruks have greater numbers and are more resilient then other orcs

[Muffer Nl]

Could you please give references where you got that data from?

[Æsir]

According to books Uruks and Uruk-hais are the same breed and have the same armour (mail). Those clone regiments of steel-plated Isengard Uruk-hai are PJ's fiction. Still I like them.

[Anibal at portas]

Indeed saruman create half-orcs not uruk-hai.

[Æsir]

Indeed saruman create half-orcs not uruk-hai.

probably by crossbreeding the Dunlandings with Uruk-hai. I'm not shure, though. In movies half-orcs isn't mentioned at all.

[Anibal at portas]

probably by crossbreeding the Dunlandings with Uruk-hai. I'm not shure, though. In movies half-orcs isn't mentioned at all.

yes,exactly.

in the movies they called the half-orcs uruk-hai,due to reasons to differ better to orcs and half-orcs between the public not understood with the world of tolkien in the cinemas.
Indeed saruman was possessing some uruks in his army before the creation of his own version of uruk-hai.
i not know if the uruks of mordor are a mixture of human being with orc,but the sure thing is that the half-orcs are different physically from an uruk.
king kong could to do new units for isengard being based on this aspect of the half-orcs of saruman.

[Shocked]

Well in the movies the Uruk-Hai seem to be much stronger then the average orc, and seem to be bigger aswell

[Seleukos_I.]

Well in the movies the Uruk-Hai seem to be much stronger then the average orc, and seem to be bigger aswell

The movies are not a good base to start a discussion about lore.
As other people already mentionend there was no big difference between both.

[Lordinquisitor]

I think that Isengard Uruks and Mordor Uruks are about the same strength. Most (all?) Of Sarumans ideas Sauron had before and it seems unlikely, that he would have weaker Uruk`s than Saruman. As others have pointed out the plate, crossbow, crap was invented by the Movies and isn`t mentioned in the books.

[Jack Sparrow]

Hey guys Am i rite : Human>Uruk-hai>orc | In size...
Or maybe Uruk hai is bigger than a human I am totally vexed!

[Æsir]

Hey guys Am i rite : Human>Uruk-hai>orc | In size...
Or maybe Uruk hai is bigger than a human I am totally vexed!

Uruks, Uruk-hai, Snagas and Goblins all are Orcs. Orc is a general term. There are 3 main subdivisions of Orcs:
a) Goblins - Orcs of MM;
b) Uruks (in Mordor) and Uruk-hai (in Isengard) - largest and strongest Orcs;
c) Snagas - weakest Orcs.