black numenorians

[aragorn of dunedain]

Hello everyone!

I had an idea in mind.
Why not create a faction with Numenorians black?

I just images of what the soldiers may look like:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_lV4tfvG755.../D%27haran.jpg


http://thumbnails.hulu.com/16/993/82...L2bA2ESZ3w.jpg


http://i3.fc-img.com/fc03img/Comcast...if_640_320.jpg


What do you think of my idea?

[illeria]

Yeah i'd like Black Numenorians in the fight it would be intresting to see them
i always liked them in BFME ROTK they where my fav guys use in game

[jellebie]

It hasn't really any base in lore to have enough black numenoreans to make a entire faction from them, there were simply not enough of them. I think that they are stretching the lore by the amount of Black Numenoreans already seeing as they faded from history after 1050 almost 2000 years for this mod. (but Gameplays rules so I am glad they are in).

[Vaz]

Why shouldn't there be? Tell me exactly where there shouldn't be enough Black Numenoreans for a faction? Whether they fade from history or not is beside the point. The Romans Faded from history in the 3-4th Centuries AD IIRC, yet it only formally ended in the 1800's.

[Seleukos_I.]

Why shouldn't there be? Tell me exactly where there shouldn't be enough Black Numenoreans for a faction? Whether they fade from history or not is beside the point. The Romans Faded from history in the 3-4th Centuries AD IIRC, yet it only formally ended in the 1800's.

Well formally but it did not have any power left. The same would be with a Black Numenorians faction. There are not enough. Gondor, the Kingdom with the most Numenorians has only a few "pure" Numenorians left. So why should any other faction be able to field more of them.
There are black Numenorians in the service of Sauron (Mouth of Sauron for example). There is also the black Numenorians unit as bodyguard unit for the Nazgul.

[Kamakai]

Well formally but it did not have any power left. The same would be with a Black Numenorians faction. There are not enough. Gondor, the Kingdom with the most Numenorians has only a few "pure" Numenorians left. So why should any other faction be able to field more of them.

Why not make them a faction, but since there are few make them start with like 2 settlements. A castle and a village maybe.

[Vifarc]

Why not make them a faction, but since there are few make them start with like 2 settlements. A castle and a village maybe.

Lol, it would be ONE settlement of 200 men, with a bad growing ratio. You will do the war only watching your population growing one by one... Turn 368, you have three units and less than 900 men in your village, yeah!

[jellebie]

Why shouldn't there be? Tell me exactly where there shouldn't be enough Black Numenoreans for a faction? Whether they fade from history or not is beside the point. The Romans Faded from history in the 3-4th Centuries AD IIRC, yet it only formally ended in the 1800's.

why should there be enough Black Numernoreans from a faction?
to start there are only four Black Numernoreans mentioned in the Trilogy, three Nazghuls and the Mouth of Sauron(perhaps Gothmog to). If there would be enough armies of them then i would think that they would be described together with the other evil men at the siege of Minas Tirith. so maybe I wasn't clear enough by saying that there it was the only reason. but together with that my second reason is :
What does is add to the gameplay, an other evil faction, where should it be located?
how would you build it roster, surly there shouldn't be enough of them to form militia and other weak troops, so what would you give them then orcs or other evil men? wouldn't they be a clone form mordor or harad but with a little more importance to the elite troops? I think that the only thing that should be done would be creating a unit of Black Numenorean Archers for mordor.

[Marcion]

...I thought their descendants lived in Umbar. The ones mentioned specifically were those that became Sauron's favorites during the Second Age, when Harad was fighting with Mordor against the other Dunedain.

[Dea Paladin]

(perhaps Gothmog to).

Lol? Gothmog is an orc if I am correct? How can he be a black numenorian if he is an orc?

[jellebie]

Lol? Gothmog is an orc if I am correct? How can he be a black numenorian if he is an orc?

In the movie he is an orc, but in the book nothing is told about him, except the fact that he wasthe luitenant of Minas morgul, he could still be alive after the battle,Lol now that I think about it he even could be the Moth of Sauron after it.

Name 3 non-evil Numenoreans in the Trilogy present during the War of the Ring?

well there aren't any left but the closest would be Aragorn Amroth and Halbarad.

There's very few times when something is specifically ruled out, but tell me exactly why Trolls mounted on mumak couldn't occur?

and why can't trolls fly, and why don't have goblins have laserguns, and maybe sauron had a special army of dragon-balrog hybrids in mordor but forgot to use them befoere the ring was destroyed. I m sorry but i don't really view this as an argument.

Why can't their be a small band of black numenoreans (after all, there are more black numenoreans than good numenoreans in the trilogy), as a small faction?
Why do you have to take the Roster to be like All others? Why not a set of units with multiple 3HP units, but small in size and slow to replenish?

because they would have to be either uber strong which doesn't much sense because then they shouldn't be stronger then elves (3hp come on they are men not beasts), or they would have hardly any influence on gameplay.

What does it add to Gameplay? A new evil faction? Are you kidding? There are 6 Good Factions, against 4 Evil ones. The good forces outclass and outnumber, and the AI has to resort to cheating to be able to stay alive in the game. However, with the balance shifted further away from the good forces, that would mean that the Evil side has to resort less on Garrison Script, and the human player has to become more efficient at defending their forces if they are good.

the regions they would own? they should have to be taken somewhere either from mordor or more likely harad, which would be able to create much more units from those places then a couple of smal warbands.

[aragorn of dunedain]

Let's say I had a Style Angmar faction with men (black Numenorians) files that have affinities with the darkness.
With a sovereign example: mouth of sauron which has as a kind of small kingdom near the emyn muil and swamps of the dead for example.

It may well invent other things. After if the gameplay has remained the true story of Tolkien, I does not.

[Outlawstar15a2]

Lol? Gothmog is an orc if I am correct? How can he be a black numenorian if he is an orc?

No, the Gothmog of the movie was a made up character solely for the movie's sake. He gained a following, I personally like him, but he is not lore accurate from the perspective of the books. However, I would love to see him included as Mordor's second commander maybe third, and Commander of the Gondorian campaign.

Here's a link to the real Gothmog: http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Gothmog

[Seleukos_I.]

No Gothmog is mentioned in the books

[Vaz]

Name 3 non-evil Numenoreans in the Trilogy present during the War of the Ring?

Then again, what happened to the "Alternate History", and "NEIN DASH ISH FOUSH" attitude that pretty much everyone seems to be developing.

There's very few times when something is specifically ruled out, but tell me exactly why Trolls mounted on mumak couldn't occur? Why can't their be a small band of black numenoreans (after all, there are more black numenoreans than good numenoreans in the trilogy), as a small faction?

Why do you have to take the Roster to be like All others? Why not a set of units with multiple 3HP units, but small in size and slow to replenish?

What does it add to Gameplay? A new evil faction? Are you kidding? There are 6 Good Factions, against 4 Evil ones. The good forces outclass and outnumber, and the AI has to resort to cheating to be able to stay alive in the game. However, with the balance shifted further away from the good forces, that would mean that the Evil side has to resort less on Garrison Script, and the human player has to become more efficient at defending their forces if they are good.

[Seleukos_I.]

Name 3 non-evil Numenoreans in the Trilogy present during the War of the Ring?

Aragorn, Faramir, Boromir, Denethor...

Then again, what happened to the "Alternate History", and "NEIN DASH ISH FOUSH" attitude that pretty much everyone seems to be developing.

Well it's more about alternate history after the first turn.

What does it add to Gameplay? A new evil faction? Are you kidding? There are 6 Good Factions, against 4 Evil ones. The good forces outclass and outnumber, and the AI has to resort to cheating to be able to stay alive in the game. However, with the balance shifted further away from the good forces, that would mean that the Evil side has to resort less on Garrison Script, and the human player has to become more efficient at defending their forces if they are good.

Actually there are 5 evil factions and 7 good. And I think the balance is ok. The Total War AI always had to cheat to be a threat to the player.

[Evan MF]

but tell me exactly why Trolls mounted on mumak couldn't occur?

Firstly, trolls are not as well co ordinated, or intelligent as men, so they would not be able to control the beasts.

Secondly, Trolls are larger that men and more suited to infantry combat, therefore, why waste your trolls on top of a Mumakil where they take up room, which could be more efficiently used with human archers, when you can utilise them to their full capability of being heavy infantry shock troops.

Thirdly, the whole concept seems a bit of a miss-match. From all the sources we have: Lore, Books, Movies, Fan opinion, etc we have evidence of the use of trolls, their level of intelligence and their capabilities that suggests that they would not go well with Mumakil. And plus there is no evidence to prove that Trolls would ride Mumakil (although I do not stress this as the core of the argument, because we have alot of unmentioned details about Middle Earth).


About the Black Numenorian faction:

we know that the Black Numenorian race (including Light Numenorians) were in decline and would not have the sufficient skill of fighting to compensate. Them as a faction in their own would not realisticaly have a say in world military affairs, save political affairs either.

However for the sake of gameplay, a Black Numenorian Unit can efficiently depict this race without major work for the developers or strain on the lore, that much.

I think it is best to have large factions, with highly representative rosters of the peoples of Middle Earth, where diplomatic occurences will not stray too far from Lore, than have every faction possible, where we will inevitably recieve more engine problems, lore innaccuracy, tedious gameplay and a more delayed mod.

Evan

[Maca]

I don't think that there should be a black numenorian faction. They would be too small to really be worth the bother, plus, the only new factions I would like to see are splitting of the High Elves, Silvans and Dwarves (possibly Mordor and Dol Guldur too) into two seperate factions each.

[toluas]

You all might wanna notice that technically there are no "Light Numenoreans" during the War of the Ring. How could there be? Numenor was destroyed in 3319 Second Age, i.e. 3140 years before the War of the Ring starts.

The only "Numeroreans" left are those that have been living for over 3000 years - not much non-evil men can claim to have!

So technically there are almost no Numenoreans left, but their descendants can be split into two groups: Dunedain and Black Numenoreans, the former descending from those Numenoreans that opposed Sauron, the latter from those who sided with the Dark Lord.

The Black Numenoreans of Umbar call themselves Black Numenoreans, but after that much time has passed since the downfall of Numenor, the fact that they themselves name themselves thus hardly makes them Numenoreans.

Lorewise it would be difficult to justify a Black Numenorean faction - same with the Black Numenorean bodyguard of the Ringwraiths and those in Umbar - but gamewise this faction would surely be fun.

[Inarus]

Make Umbar the capital with pirate units and led by The Mouth of Sauron. Umbar was very Black Númenorean and can be a Naval faction, (perhaps with new ship units that OWN!). Just give it loads of elite men that die very old.

P.S. If "The Mouth of Sauron" is too long a name, I like "Herumor"