Jesus, legend or historical and real?

[Ellsid]

I find that there is very little prof that Jesus existed outside the texts of the (NT) bible (and those are very shady too?).

So could Jesus have been a pure figure of legend or a historical person who's story was exaggerated by many years of verbal repetition? Such stories as casting out of demons, raising the dead or the resurrection.

For example....take the resurrection story.

New Testament documents are list below:
Writer....Date.....Resurrection passage
Paul: 50-55 (I Cor. 15:3-8)
Mark: 70 (Mark 16)
Matthew: 80 (Matthew 28)
Luke: 85 (Luke 24)
Gospel of Peter: 85-90
John: 95 (John 20-21)

Many of the extraordinary claims during Jesus Crucifixion and resurrection were as follows....
Earthquake, Rolling stone, an angel or angels, Dead bodies crawling from graves in Jerusalem, the many Jesus post resurrection appearances and disappearances.

So as the (NT) books were written is it possible that the legend of Jesus grows more fantastic.

[removeduser_487563287433]

There's loads of outside sources, Tacitus and Josephus being most important.

[Old_Scratch]

Also, there's a thread already about this. http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...jesus+exist%3F

[Ellsid]

Yes there were writings about Jesus outside the bible but a 100 years later? opens the possibility of tampering?

But I should have known most believers would be able to get past the first sentence.

[removeduser_487563287433]

Yes there were writings about Jesus outside the bible but a 100 years later? opens the possibility of tampering?

But I should have known most believers would be able to get past the first sentence.

Tacitus and Josephus both lived in the 1st century AD. They have no motive to support Jesus.

[KingDave]

There's loads of outside sources, Tacitus and Josephus being most important.

Faked in later years OR completely taken out of context. There are no primary sources about Jesus. Even the gospels were written after anyone who could have possibly met him was long dead.

Therefore, he should be treated like any other mythological figure. Sure, he may have been based on some now lost practitioner of silly magical tricks BUT so was Robin Hood and King Arthur, although they did NONE of the things later attributed to them.

Just use some simple logic. Jesus did a bunch of impossible . Brought people back from the dead, cured leprosy in the 1st century and turned water into wine within seconds. Is any of that remotely possible? No.

[iudas]

Just use some simple logic. Jesus did a bunch of impossible . Brought people back from the dead, cured leprosy in the 1st century and turned water into wine within seconds. Is any of that remotely possible? No.

That's the point. What is supernatural transcends logic. Fighting religion with logic is useless, because it completely (or worse, partly) ignores it, by principle.

Jesus was definitely real, assuming he was simply made up is senseless and biased (as others have pointed out, there are other accepted historical characters who weren't mentioned anywhere during their lifetime). Though it isn't easy to find out the facts about him.

[Arch-hereticK]

I think the problem is that extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence.
And suspension of natural laws are certainly extraordinary claims. Without the neccessary evidence these claims don't deserve to be taken seriously.

[Tacitursa]

I think the "They waited 2-3 decades because...." arguement is very weak aswell.

If i met the son of god in person and beleived him to be just that. Anything he was teaching me would be written down asap and if i couldnt write i would sure as hell find somebody that could.

If nobody wrote anything down how did they remember and pass that information on to the authors of the bible?

I can quote maybe 5 to 10 things one of my teachers at school said and that was 9 years ago. Remembering almost everything they said and even random conversations they had with other people over a 30+ year period seems a little impossible. And even the 5-10 quotes i remember are vague at best and probaly not accurate.

But then to pass all that information on to somebody else and them remember it also wow people back in the day must of had some awesome memory...

or imagination.

[Visna]

Jesus was definitely real, assuming he was simply made up is senseless and biased (as others have pointed out, there are other accepted historical characters who weren't mentioned anywhere during their lifetime). Though it isn't easy to find out the facts about him.

On that note, that Jesus gets singled out in the mass of all the other apocalyptic preachers and "miracle-men" who roamed freely in Judea at the time should provide some hints at his importance.
Did he walk on water, wake the dead and turn water into wine? Most likely not. But he definetely existed.

[removeduser_487563287433]

Faked in later years OR completely taken out of context.

Neither Josephus or Tacitus are faked, and I've read the entirety of what remains of Tacitus' Annuals, so it's not taken out of context. He certainly existed.

[Helm]

The story is mainly legend unless you're a Christian then you will believe otherwise. Muslims have a slighty different version of the legend but their version is probably a little closer to how it actually happened, if it did happen.

[iudas]

Both.

[basics]

" I find that there is very little prof that Jesus existed outside the texts of the (NT) bible (and those are very shady too?)."

Ellsid,

And why should people have known of Him? He was Jewish, not newsworthy among the nations until that is, the disciples went amongst their brethren and any Gentile who would listen. To the Jew of course they listened and likened because for centuries that's all they had to do whilst awaiting the fulfilment of the prophets. And why so many of them believed at that time was because the word was spread not only by mouth but the power of God.

So when Paul and his associates journeyed with the message, it was first to the Jew and then to the Gentiles whom wherever he was if not saw that power in Paul, heard of it, and so they too listened and many believed. Gentiles then would have had no knowledge of Judaism outside of appreciating that to the Romans they were a bloomin nuisance. To them they were a strange people who though being perhaps their neighbour didn't particularly like them and vice versa.

Nonetheless, God saw to it that the word was spread and that at the hearing many Gentiles believed and did so because their persons, their lives, were turned around because of the name of this Jewish Messiah. And, like the Jews who also had been converted, they saw the power behind the word. Indeed it became their experience to expect it in all that they did, much to the consternation of those within their friends and families.

From that time on men and women of all kinds and creeds have been called out by God to experience much the same and who can deny that at the name of Jesus Christ many are still being renewed even at this very day. Now men and women cannot be renewed by a myth. Let's leave these to the religious. The question is does God deliver on what He promised and the answer is for certain, yes.

[Helm]

People know of Jesus because he founded a major global religion, that is something worthy of note. It doesn't prove he was divine in any way.

[Thalassocrat]

People know of Jesus because he founded a major global religion, that is something worthy of note. It doesn't disprove he was divine in any way.

[basics]

" People know of Jesus because he founded a major global religion, that is something worthy of note. It doesn't prove he was divine in any way."

Helm,

So all the writings that make the Law, Prophets and Psalms do not point to the divinity of the Lord Jesus Christ? The wonderful joining of God with the egg of Mary told of in visitation by an angel as being God with us has no bearing on the making of an exceptional human being? Even in the vision of John when the Lord presents Himself as Alpha and Omega, the Lord God Almighty, that doesn't convince you of His divinity?

[blackwatersix]

The wonderful joining of God with the egg of Mary told of in visitation by an angel as being God with us has no bearing on the making of an exceptional human being? Even in the vision of John when the Lord presents Himself as Alpha and Omega, the Lord God Almighty, that doesn't convince you of His divinity?

basics, ima let you finish, you've got great faith but...

even I as a christian have to admit that those aren't academic sources. I believe Jesus is real and not a myth.

Remember the adage that "history is written by the victors?" Judea wasn't exactly the forefront of activity in the Greco-Roman world back then. Like, imagine putting yourself in the shoes of a learned Roman scholar in Rome or Athens at that time..

1.) would you really know about some nutty guy who was put to death by the governor (as opposed to the other nutty guys put to death by the governor) in some far off land with nutty people called jews

*I only used "nutty" as a way of describing how I'd see it if I was a scholar back then who haven't even heard of Jesus*

2.) would you even care?

thus explaining the absence of the mention of Jesus from the records until Christianity became a force to be reckoned with in Rome and Greece with the preaching of Peter, Paul, et al.

[Helm]

So all the writings that make the Law, Prophets and Psalms do not point to the divinity of the Lord Jesus Christ? The wonderful joining of God with the egg of Mary told of in visitation by an angel as being God with us has no bearing on the making of an exceptional human being? Even in the vision of John when the Lord presents Himself as Alpha and Omega, the Lord God Almighty, that doesn't convince you of His divinity?

Would there be anything stopping anyone from making all that up as a fictional story?

[Tacitursa]

So all the writings that make the Law, Prophets and Psalms do not point to the divinity of the Lord Jesus Christ? The wonderful joining of God with the egg of Mary told of in visitation by an angel as being God with us has no bearing on the making of an exceptional human being? Even in the vision of John when the Lord presents Himself as Alpha and Omega, the Lord God Almighty, that doesn't convince you of His divinity

That doesnt really prove anything. Anyone could of found those writtings and thought to themselfs hey im gunna pretend to be this guy for some extra fame and fortune, Yes people even today are that desperate so its nothing new.

Just look how many people claim to be abducted by aliens each year for a bit of attention or claim there house in haunted by magic pixies and demons.

Someone claiming they are the son of the creator isnt that far fetched back then you have all kinds of radical claims.

Let's be honest though if someone could heal the sick with his hands , walk on water and turn water to wine im pretty sure there would be more than 2 people mentioning him and there mentions of him are very vague and debatable at best.