Concerning the position of women in Islam

[Hax]

Hey guys.

After reading some posts by several people who wish to attack Islam, there is always one point that'll come back. "Islam is repressing women!"

So let's get this straight first: I won't attack those people directly. My only point is to clarify some things concerning the position of women, generally, in western religious traditions, and then make a fitting comparison to the several Islamic traditions.


Pre-Islamic Arabia:

First of all, I wish to remind people of the fact that pre-Islamic Arabia, virtually everywhere lacked a central government. Thus, you lacked any form of protection outside your family/clan/tribe. This, necessarily lead to a form of tribalism in which you had virtually no options but to remain inside your family. This is clearly the opposite to both the monarchical autocratic system of the Roman Empire and the monarchical semi-autonomous system of the Sassanid Empire, in the tradition of both the Parthians and the Achaemenids.

Logically, what would this mean? I'm not entirely sure about this myself, but the only way to make sure that someone was indeed from a certain clan was through the mother. Of course, we all know the tradition that Islamic women are supposed to be virgins whenever they marry.

After some minor digging, I've found that the position of women was pretty diverse; from virtually no authority to a large degree of authority (the Bible even speaks of the Queen of Sheba, who clearly had a pretty high position).

Islam:

Alright, now let's get to a few subjects which are often cited as Islam's repressive nature towards women. Let's start:

1) Burkha
2) Hijab
3) The laws of inheritence
4) Supposed death penalties for being raped

Let's start with the most obvious, the burkha. Now, I've heard certain things concerning the origin of the burkha, but let's get this straight; wherever it originated, it was most certainly pre-Islamic. Al-Jazair was indeed, largely a desert. What do we find in the Arabian desert? That's right, a lot of sand.

So the Burkha, probably started out as a form of protection against sand. First as a robe, and afterwards a veil was sown over it. Face it, it's pretty handy against a sandstorm.

I've also heard that it was actually a way of distinguishing women from men, which would be handy in a lot of cases, such as combat. So the Burkha is really something quite cultural and not necessarily Islamic. It's like calling Christmas a typically traditional Christian holiday, though originally it wasn't, as we all know.

The Hijab

And say to the believing women that they cast down their looks and guard their private parts and do not display their ornaments except what appears thereof, and let them wear their head-coverings over their bosoms, and not display their ornaments except to their husbands or their fathers, or the fathers of their husbands, or their sons, or the sons of their husbands, or their brothers, or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women, or those whom their right hands possess, or the male servants not having need (of women), or the children who have not attained knowledge of what is hidden of women; and let them not strike their feet so that what they hide of their ornaments may be known

Now, anyone who has read the Qu'ran will know that at some points it is unclear at best and incoherent at worst. Referring to this exact surah, we will notice something: "to wear their head coverings over their bosoms", basically saying they should cover their breasts.

The barbarity of the very concept of covering a woman's breasts! Oh no, that's actually quite common. So nevermind that. "Do not display their ornaments except to their husbands". If we look at the history of Islam from a cultural-historical point of view we see this tribalism coming back. I think it is quite important to know that your wife/mother was indeed loyal to the tribe, to avoid mixing of blood and to confirm the faithfulness of your wife/mother. This is extremely important in a tribalistic society. Outcasts are either dead or going to die soon. It's as simple as that.

So yeah, the Hijab was probably used as a preventive measure to avoid certain sexual unpleasant situations. Whether to agree with it or not is dependent on the person.

The laws of inheritence

One of my favourite subjects to be true. I actually discussed this for a long time with my uncle, which is indeed something comparable to a [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sufism]Sufi[/url], and he has studied Islam for quite some time. In any case, yes, it's completely true that women only get half of what the men get, but the woman is free to spend her money as she likes. It is the male's responsibility to use his money to protect and feed his sister. Whether this is abided in all situations; I'm not sure, and it's not really that important. It just shows what Islamic scripture has said about this specific case.

Supposed death penalties for being raped

Yes, we've all heard it; a woman was raped in *backward nation* and will now suffer *a number* of leashes/be executed, whatever.

The Qu'ran says nothing about this. Nada, zero, absolutely nothing. I can't find a single passage in the Qu'ran that states that women that are raped should be punished. It's quite ridiculous, and I don't know whether it was just made up by either the right-wingers as a method to condemn Islam or the *backward nation*.


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The position of women in non-Islamic western societies

Judaism shines out as an example, seeing that the only way to define whether you are a Jew is by the matriarchal line.

Christianity, on the other hand is something entirely different. Though this might just be reserved to the orthodox Christians in the Netherlands, when it was freezing 5 degrees under 0 Celsius, girls were still forced to wear skirts to school. That's ridiculous and, as far as I know, actually illegal.

But just so you know, I'm not going to cite endless examples of women being oppressed by the Christian Church; it's not important.




What is important is knowing when to relativate, knowing that your interpretation of scripture(s) doesn't mean that your point of view is the absolute, infallible truth, and that many people may disagree. I'd even go as far as saying that absolute truth doesn't even exist, and that our visions of truth are merely perceptions of a reality which isn't even real (but that's Buddhism, and that's clearly not the topic here (though I might do something in the future about the position of women in the eastern traditions)). So everywhere, anywhere, people will read the Torah, the Bible and the Qu'ran and interpretate them in different ways.

Go ahead, cite a thousand examples in which Muslims oppress women. Cite a thousand examples where Christians, Buddhists, Confucianists or Atheists oppress women. As I said, it's not really relevant. What's way more important is how you choose to perceive the different facets of "truth". After all, you choose to see what is "real" and what is not.

Namu Daishi Henjo Kongo

- Elphir

[motiv-8]

I just had a discussion about this with my mother. We came to the conclusion that we are able to point out quite a few societies, including individual Muslim ones, that have gender issues.

Some interesting sourcework:

Leila Ahmed, Women and Gender in Islam
Geraldine Brooks, Nine Parts of Desire: The Hidden World of Islamic Women

Please add.

[Tacitursa]

Japanese women are in a similar position to muslim women quite a few cultures have this problem not just islam.

[royfang]

I just had a discussion about this with my mother. We came to the conclusion that we are able to point out quite a few societies, including individual Muslim ones, that have gender issues.

Some interesting sourcework:

Leila Ahmed, Women and Gender in Islam
Geraldine Brooks, Nine Parts of Desire: The Hidden World of Islamic Women

Please add.

Is there any books on repressed women in other religions?

Japanese women are in a similar position to muslim women quite a few cultures have this problem not just islam.

Those people don't care about that, they only "care'' about Islamic women. Funny people.

[motiv-8]

Is there any books on repressed women in other religions?

Probably. That's not what these books talk about, however. It's a little more sophisticated. Perhaps that's why you should at least do a little bit of investigating before you ask stupid questions.

Those people don't care about that, they only "care'' about Islamic women. Funny people.

And apparently some other funny people can't read what other people write:

I just had a discussion about this with my mother. We came to the conclusion that we are able to point out quite a few societies, including individual Muslim ones, that have gender issues.

So, to sum up, you contributed absolutely nothing in your post. Quit while you're behind.

Geography and climate will influence a culture to certain extent though it would really be more a factor for Australian Aborigines and Inuits.

You know, you have have this really odd way of saying things, without actually saying anything.

[Copperknickers II]

I just had a discussion about this with my mother. We came to the conclusion that we are able to point out quite a few societies, including individual Muslim ones, that have gender issues.

So, to sum up, you contributed absolutely nothing in your post. Quit while you're behind.

Wasn't it you who said that?

[Helm]

You know, you have have this really odd way of saying things, without actually saying anything.

I was saying you're right but not all that right.

[Helm]

Islam wan't that much different to the west as far as women were concerned before the 20th century. But they now need to catch up a bit.

[Hax]

Islam wan't that much different to the west as far as women were concerned before the 20th century. But they now need to catch up a bit.

Oh? Were Islamic women living in Indonesia exactly the same as Islamic women living in Somalia? Did Chinese Muslim women share the same experiences as those living in Morocco?

[Helm]

Living in a Communist state or an anarchy would make things a little different.

[Hax]

Naturally. Living in a desert would make a difference from living on plains. There are loads of differences between Armenia, Azerbaijan and North-Westen Iran and the Maghreb.

[Helm]

Geography and climate will influence a culture to certain extent though it would really be more a factor for Australian Aborigines and Inuits.

[Chlodwig I.]

================================

The position of women in non-Islamic western societies


Christianity, on the other hand is something entirely different. Though this might just be reserved to the orthodox Christians in the Netherlands, when it was freezing 5 degrees under 0 Celsius, girls were still forced to wear skirts to school. That's ridiculous and, as far as I know, actually illegal.

But just so you know, I'm not going to cite endless examples of women being oppressed by the Christian Church; it's not important.

Western Countries are secular Countries.
So its quite stupid to compare religious traditions of a minority in a western country with the official Laws of Islamic Countries in Middle East.

considering your skirt problem.... its quite normal that parents "force" their children to wear clothes because if they wouldn't many of the children would go to school with only wearing pyjamas
by the way a long woolen skirt is a very good piece of clothes for winter because the air under the skirt works as a thermal isolation


Edit:
And by the way freezing cold starts at -15 degrees Celsius.... -5 degrees Celsius can be considered a normal winter

[Thema'zandaar]

considering your skirt problem.... its quite normal that parents "force" their children to wear clothes because if they wouldn't many of the children would go to school with only wearing pyjamas

Is it? Because if memory serves correctly, muslim parents forcing their girls to wear hijabs or burqas have drawn criticisms and cries of "oppression!" from the muslim-haters club.

I marked the discriminating parts for you .... for the case you didn't noticed it.

You missed his explanations too.

Hadith is written oral tradition.

Written Oral

Then there are accounts which are falsified for political slander, take into account this depiction of the buraq...



Nowhere in the Quran is this creature depicted as having the face of a woman. That image was just thrown in there in an attempt to slander Muhammad as a womanizer. The crown is a symbol of wealth and power, it was used to depict Muhammad as greedy and power hungry... Same as the ostrich feathers, gold ornaments, all symbols of wealth...

The Muslims being ignorant simply took this depiction as fact and started drawing the buraq in this manner, even though this depiction is in conflict with the Quran...

This particular art appears to be of persian origin. Are you sure it was slanderous and not artistic licensing?

I appreciate your wariness of hadith. Hadith are the words of a man. No matter how wise and insightful he was, he was still a man and the Hadith were not the inspired word of god, not even according to muslims. So why treat them as such?

[Genius of the Restoration]

I appreciate your wariness of hadith. Hadith are the words of a man. No matter how wise and insightful he was, he was still a man and the Hadith were not the inspired word of god, not even according to muslims. So why treat them as such?

The logic goes that Muhammad was inspired by God and that his actions were thus divinely inspired. Whatever he said or did was divinely sanctioned. The issue with hadith is generally not whether they are important to Islamic jurisprudence and guidelines for living, but whether they were recorded accurately. If they were said by Muhammad then they would be accepted, but some doubt the authenticity of some of the traditions. Indeed, some are known to be later fabrications.

[Chlodwig I.]

Is it? Because if memory serves correctly, muslim parents forcing their girls to wear hijabs or burqas have drawn criticisms and cries of "oppression!" from the muslim-haters club.

Well maybe I wasn't clear enough

The OP tried to compare a very small Christian minority in a mainly atheist country (Netherlands) with 100% Islam dominated Countries, to show that all western societies are discriminating women and thats ridiculous.

I think that forcing children to wear religous symbols and indoctrinating them is a violation of children human rights and that these parents are abusing their privilege to raise and teach children.

I think when in a western country, muslim boys don't respect female teachers because they are female
or muslim girls are teached that every girl that don't cover herself is a prostitute there is something going wrong.

It's strange that in Countries like France, Sweden, Germany, only the Muslim immigrants are causing problems but not the Buddhists, Orthodox Christians, Hindus etc.

[Thema'zandaar]

The OP tried to compare a very small Christian minority in a mainly atheist country (Netherlands) with 100% Islam dominated Countries, to show that all western societies are discriminating women and thats ridiculous.

The comparison was fair. When comparing principles, it doesn't matter how widespread the phenomenon is but rather if it is right or wrong. It wouldn't matter if Honour Killings were limited only to Pakistan, they would still be wrong.

I think that forcing children to wear religous symbols and indoctrinating them is a violation of children human rights and that these parents are abusing their privilege to raise and teach children.

And forcing their girls to wear skirts in cold weather isn't abuse? It almost sounds like a punishment to me. Apart from different ideological approaches, what is the difference between parents forcing their children to get an education and parents forcing their children to respect religious tradition? To those who believe in God, drumming in religious beliefs into children is necessary to save their souls. They are acting out of percieved best interest of the children.

What gives you the right to term this enforcement "abuse"? The fact that you don't agree with/approve of their religious beliefs and practices? Parents have a right to raise their children in their belief system, and the right to punish/force them to observe religion (as long as enforcement is within reasonable bounds). When children grow into the age of majority, that's when parents lose these rights.

I think when in a western country, muslim boys don't respect female teachers because they are female
or muslim girls are teached that every girl that don't cover herself is a prostitute there is something going wrong.

Well, if this has happened, I am inclined to agree with you. Has this happened? Note, this doesn't change that parents can still coerce their children into following their religion. They just don't have the right to brainwash their kids into hating others.

It's strange that in Countries like France, Sweden, Germany, only the Muslim immigrants are causing problems but not the Buddhists, Orthodox Christians, Hindus etc.

No, it isn't strange. I have a question: how much of a problem were they before the "secular" governments decided to trample on the hijab-wearing muslimas? Live and let live! Then complain if they cause problems. The Phillippines has a righteous greviance against the Abu-Sayyaf group because they do not ill-treat their Muslim populace. France, not so much.

Oh god you sure got me there Thema'zandaar... Want a cookie and a pat on the back for your hard work?

Nah, just the cookie please.

I meant it was oral tradition that was collected and finally written down... The information was originally transmitted through word of mouth, but as long as it makes you feel smart right?

WellllllL. I just thought it was too delicious an oxymoron to ignore. I'm happy if you laughed along with me.

The image was described through words in a particular hadith before it was reflected in the art... Same as paintings of angels and demons, there were no illustrations in the bible but artists used their imagination to create illustrations based on the descriptions...

Was this a Sahih Hadith? I thought you said it was slander?

We believe Muhammad received wisdom from god... why not take such wisdom? Of course accuracy of reported events may be debated.

Forgive me if I'm mistaken, but the wisdom he recieved from God was the Quran. The Hadith was his own insight added on top of the word of god. Now, I understand that Muhammad was a wise man but was he infallible? The Surah, He Frowned is enough of an answer.

[Hax]

The OP tried to compare a very small Christian minority in a mainly atheist country (Netherlands) with 100% Islam dominated Countries, to show that all western societies are discriminating women and thats ridiculous.

Watch a random Hollywood movie/gangsta rap clip. See how you like you're woman-loving West after that.

[Shams al-Ma'rifa]

Forgive me if I'm mistaken, but the wisdom he recieved from God was the Quran. The Hadith was his own insight added on top of the word of god. Now, I understand that Muhammad was a wise man but was he infallible? The Surah, He Frowned is enough of an answer.

Your mom is infallible yet still you seek her advice... Same for your friends, your psychiatrist, the rest of your family.

[Shams al-Ma'rifa]

Written Oral

Oh god you sure got me there Thema'zandaar... Want a cookie and a pat on the back for your hard work?

I meant it was oral tradition that was collected and finally written down... The information was originally transmitted through word of mouth, but as long as it makes you feel smart right?

This particular art appears to be of persian origin. Are you sure it was slanderous and not artistic licensing?

The image was described through words in a particular hadith before it was reflected in the art... Same as paintings of angels and demons, there were no illustrations in the bible but artists used their imagination to create illustrations based on the descriptions...

I appreciate your wariness of hadith. Hadith are the words of a man. No matter how wise and insightful he was, he was still a man and the Hadith were not the inspired word of god, not even according to muslims. So why treat them as such?

We believe Muhammad received wisdom from god... why not take such wisdom? Of course accuracy of reported events may be debated.