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  1. #1
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    Default Iraq or Afghanistan?

    stupid ing idiot mr president obama
    i cant stand all this 'will you, wont you' up the troop numbahs BS
    ing do what the voters voted you in for; i swear to god, obama looks more and more incompetant the weeks that go past.
    food for thought:
    Choosing between Iraq and Afghanistan

    The U.S. can no longer afford to fight both wars.

    By Andrew Rigney
    Published: October 30th, 2009


    After several years of media neglect, Afghanistan is once again the it war. Over the past few months, government and public debate has intensified over the war’s costs. Specifically, this has focused on whether satisfying American interests are worth the costs in material and human terms. Unfortunately, these were grimly illustrated earlier in the week with the death of 14 Americans in a helicopter crash and a Taliban attack that killed several United Nations officials in Kabul.
    Complicating these events in Afghanistan, a series of coordinated suicide bombings occurred in Iraq on Sunday. These attacks are a strong reminder of the continuing conflict in the country. Iraq remains the elephant in the room for the U.S. military. Although the intensity of the conflict has subsided since the 2007 “surge” in military forces, the United States continues to experience casualties and expend large amounts of funds. And because of the country’s instability, the situation in Iraq dictates that a large contingent of American forces remains.
    Violence in Afghanistan and Iraq has intensified debate over whether to increase the number of military forces in both countries. Specifically, General Stanley McChrystal, the top commander in Afghanistan, has requested an estimated 20,000 additional forces to the country. Citing the apparent success of the “surge” in Iraq, McChrystal has urged that these forces are necessary to ensure American “victory” in Afghanistan.
    While it is possible that a similar “surge” of U.S. forces to Afghanistan would be successful, such a deployment may simply be unfeasible. This is because the United States’ military has passed its breaking point in terms of military manpower. American military manpower has been gradually exhausted by the stress of two intensive and lengthy conflicts. The absence of available forces has been coupled with a reduction in overall military effectiveness. The effectiveness of military units has been weakened through over-deployment. With many soldiers experiencing numerous combat tours, U.S. forces have been over-deployed to Iraq and Afghanistan, causing a decreased solider morale and an overall decline in military efficiency.
    But over-deployments have become a strategic necessity because of the Afghanistan and Iraq conflicts’ constant need for more men on the ground. However, this sustained strategy of over-deployments will significantly weaken U.S. military efficiency and overall efforts in these conflicts. Because of this reality, it would be beneficial for the U.S. to concentrate its military forces in either Afghanistan or Iraq. America’s manpower deficiency deprives military planners the luxury of realistically and effectively doing both.
    The decision to concentrate forces in either Afghanistan or Iraq should be dictated by America’s strategic interests. In Afghanistan, the U.S. has several important interests, such as the elimination of terrorist sanctuaries, the defeat of the Taliban insurgency, the reduction of the country’s drug trade, and the stabilization of Afghanistan’s inchoate democracy.
    However, satisfying these interests would have marginal benefits for the U.S., while incurring substantial costs in manpower and funds. It is therefore in America’s best strategic interest to concentrate forces in Iraq. Like in Afghanistan, the U.S. has interests in stabilizing Iraq’s democratic government. However, these are secondary to America’s significant security and economic interests in the country. Also, U.S. casualties in Iraq have been drastically reduced since the implementation of the “surge.” Because of these reduced costs and the potential long-term benefits, the United States would be best served by concentrating its military forces in Iraq.
    By continuing to focus on both the Afghanistan and Iraq conflicts, America’s manpower deficiency will be exacerbated, over-deployments increased, and military effectiveness reduced. These problems should lead policymakers to seriously rethink the efficacy of sending additional forces to Afghanistan. Not because the war there is “un-winnable,” but because doing so may further reduce both the United States’ military strength and the country’s long-term strategic interests.

    Andrew Rigney is a graduate student in the University studying international relations.
    source: http://www.chicagomaroon.com/2009/10...nd-afghanistan

    so we're short on men, begging the rest of the world for more troops aint gonna cut it, so it's come down to choice.

    iraq or afghanistan?

  2. #2
    CtrlAltDe1337's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: Iraq or Afghanistan?

    We should send the 60,000 men we have in Europe and we won't have a shortage. To say that we don't have enough men is silly.


  3. #3
    Farnan's Avatar Saviors of the Japanese
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    Default Re: Iraq or Afghanistan?

    Quote Originally Posted by CtrlAltDe1337 View Post
    We should send the 60,000 men we have in Europe and we won't have a shortage. To say that we don't have enough men is silly.
    How many times do I have to say this, those soldiers that are stationed in Europe get deployed to A-Stan or Iraq all the time, and then get sent back to Europe for Rest and Refit. Just tell anybody in the 173rd Airborne, 2nd Cavalry Regiment or 172nd Brigade Combat Team that they haven't been deployed and they'll laugh their asses off at you.
    “The nation that will insist upon drawing a broad line of demarcation between the fighting man and the thinking man is liable to find its fighting done by fools and its thinking by cowards.”

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  4. #4
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    Default Re: Iraq or Afghanistan?

    Both the Army and the Marine Corps have been (and will continue to be) expanded manpower wise in order to reach US strategic commitments in both theaters.

    The author in the OP doesn't seem to grasp that. The US is fully capable of prosecuting both wars at the same time, especially when Iraq is essentially over (for those that didn't get the memo, the insurgency is dying) and more troops are now free to be sent to Afghanistan.

  5. #5
    Jexiel's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Re: Iraq or Afghanistan?

    Neither. Bring them all home. We get most of our oil from Canada, Mexico, and Venezuela. Israel is a big boy and can handle itself. Time to give non-interventionism a try.
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  6. #6

    Default Re: Iraq or Afghanistan?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jexiel View Post
    Neither. Bring them all home. We get most of our oil from Canada, Mexico, and Venezuela. Israel is a big boy and can handle itself. Time to give non-interventionism a try.
    We tried that remember? There was this big thing called World War II which involved a man named Hitler and we could have saved millions had we the balls to join when we should have (September 1, 1939 or earlier even). Oh and should we invade Mexico and Venezuela then? Since that is where we get most of our oil, both of those nations are fairly unstable (Mexico) and the other is unfriendly. Iraq and Afghanistan aren't about oil, get over it.

    Israel would be overrun if we would turn our back on them for even a year. We supply most of their arms and the risk of US forces being involved is what keeps many nations at bay.
    Last edited by Tiberius Tosi; November 09, 2009 at 02:55 PM.
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  7. #7

    Default Re: Iraq or Afghanistan?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jexiel View Post
    Neither. Bring them all home. We get most of our oil from Canada, Mexico, and Venezuela. Israel is a big boy and can handle itself. Time to give non-interventionism a try.
    Well since our current operations have nothing to do with either oil or Israel, I'm at a loss in trying to think of how anything in this statement is relevant.
    There was this big thing called World War II which involved a man named Hitler and we could have saved millions had we the balls to join when we should have (September 1, 1939 or earlier even)
    I hope you don't really believe that the U.S. was in an assertive enough position to actually wage a full-out war in September 1939. It had nothing to do with "balls" as you have so eloquently put it.
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  8. #8

    Default Re: Iraq or Afghanistan?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jexiel View Post
    Neither. Bring them all home. We get most of our oil from Canada, Mexico, and Venezuela. Israel is a big boy and can handle itself. Time to give non-interventionism a try.
    A bit late to give non-interventionism a try after we invaded the countries.

    You can't smash the cookie jar, start cleaning it up and then abandon it mid-way on the basis that the initial action was a bad thing to do; you just leave behind a great big mess.

  9. #9
    Mr. Scott's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Iraq or Afghanistan?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jexiel View Post
    Neither. Bring them all home. We get most of our oil from Canada, Mexico, and Venezuela. Israel is a big boy and can handle itself. Time to give non-interventionism a try.
    yeah, isolationism did good for the world.... All that happened was World War 2.

    Quote Originally Posted by Future Redleg Officer View Post
    No, the vast majority of the blame is with the aggressors. The crime of inaction is far less than the crime of action.
    Not necessarily. When it is a case between good and evil, being neutral is a crime. In certain situations, you must choose a side. Being neutral in "good and evil" situations is just being selfish; the neutral nation is only looking out for itself by not aiding in the war against evil (this isn't specifically talking of the war on terror).

    Look what inaction caused. The rwandan genocide would never have been so severe had international forces intervened and stopped it. Same with darfur.
    Last edited by Mr. Scott; November 09, 2009 at 06:57 PM.
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  10. #10
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    Default Re: Iraq or Afghanistan?

    Quote Originally Posted by Caelius View Post
    Both the Army and the Marine Corps have been (and will continue to be) expanded manpower wise in order to reach US strategic commitments in both theaters.

    The author in the OP doesn't seem to grasp that. The US is fully capable of prosecuting both wars at the same time, especially when Iraq is essentially over (for those that didn't get the memo, the insurgency is dying) and more troops are now free to be sent to Afghanistan.

    The greatest misconception in all of this, is the stretched thin concept. And even more amazing is that the Army mouthpieces actually reinforced the idea. The rotations have always been manageable, with significant increases if needed. You are talking a relatviely small percentage of our forces, combat or not.

    While Generals will always follow the political and popular climate, and often makes stupid remarks, it is worth noting that the Officer Corps as a whole, when polled, never believed they were stretched thin, or that the deployment length hurt morale in combat units.


    And so as to not start another thread, some good news out of A-stan:

    Afghan forces, backed by Coalition troops, have killed more than 130 Taliban fighters during an operation in the northern province of Kunduz. Eight Taliban commanders were among those killed while the operation "disrupted the insurgent shadow governor in Kunduz province."
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  11. #11
    TestudoAubreii's Avatar Bugger Bamfield!
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    Default Re: Iraq or Afghanistan?

    Quote Originally Posted by Future Redleg Officer View Post
    How many times do I have to say this, those soldiers that are stationed in Europe get deployed to A-Stan or Iraq all the time, and then get sent back to Europe for Rest and Refit. Just tell anybody in the 173rd Airborne, 2nd Cavalry Regiment or 172nd Brigade Combat Team that they haven't been deployed and they'll laugh their asses off at you.
    I second that.

    morrisonicus


  12. #12
    Azog 150's Avatar Civitate
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    Default Re: Iraq or Afghanistan?

    I thought America's Army was over 1 million men? Add that to 200,000 Marines as well. I know there are a lot dotted around the world, but they can't number much more then 100-200,000 surely.

    I can't believe that America is that short on men that they have to choose between Iraq and Afghanistan?

    And even if they did, surely Afghanistan is the obvious choice? Iraq is more or less stable these days and can probably take care of itself. The US is withdrawing in two years anyway. On the other hand, the war in Afghanistan is still raging and more men are desperatly needed.
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  13. #13

    Default Re: Iraq or Afghanistan?

    Quote Originally Posted by Azog 150 View Post
    I thought America's Army was over 1 million men? Add that to 200,000 Marines as well. I know there are a lot dotted around the world, but they can't number much more then 100-200,000 surely.

    I can't believe that America is that short on men that they have to choose between Iraq and Afghanistan?

    And even if they did, surely Afghanistan is the obvious choice? Iraq is more or less stable these days and can probably take care of itself. The US is withdrawing in two years anyway. On the other hand, the war in Afghanistan is still raging and more men are desperatly needed.
    The Army is over a million strong and the USMC sits at around 205,000. But of of that only about 22,000 Marines are infantry. Then you have your artillery, tanks, AAVs, LAVs, and combat engineers maybe taking up another 10,000 and the rest are support personnel or air wing. Again, the success behind the American war machine is the depth we field with logistics and support personnel.

    That said, I never felt we were stretched thin. People need to separate politics, and yes if you don't think a General worries about politics then you're naive. It's obvious to anyone once you get up to 1st Sgt on the enlisted side, or Lt. Colonel on the officer side you start to concern yourself with politics and become more a beauracrat then a warrior.

    Our current rotation for the Marines usually has combat units deploying for seven months, returning to the states for a year, and then possibly redeploying to a combat zone again. This isn't true in all cases. Let me give an example...

    All the Battalions from 7th Marines Regiment, this includes, 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 3rd Marines from the 4th Marines (we're a reinforced regiment) have deployed back to back to back to Iraq since the war began. 1/7, 3/7, and 3/4 were in the invasion while 2/7 was in Japan. Afterward each unit has continually deployed to Iraq or in the case of 2/7 their last one was to Afghanistan. The turn around time between deployments has almost always been a year.

    Now, most other regiments in the Marine Corps participate in a MEU. A MEU requires an infantry battalion to make up the ground combat element. This usually means they go on a 'float' overseas either in the S. Pacific if they are posted on the West Coast, or to the Mediterranean if they are East Coast. Generally this battalion doesn't go to Iraq or A-Stan. Sometimes they drop in for two or three months, but essentially they spent a year working up for a MEU, came home, spent another year training then went to Iraq, putting a two year gap out of the country between Iraq or A-Stan deployments.

    Sometimes dwell time (time in the states) varies. Case in point 2/7 was home for six months when the decision came to send Marines back into Afghanistan. So seven months after returning from Iraq 2/7 went to A-stan. But keep in mind that almost everyone in that battalion was new in that short period of time. Sure, about 40% were going on their second deployment, 10% for a third deployment ( a partial one only three months long), and the other 50% were all new going for their first time.

    Also consider that some units somehow have managed to only deploy once or twice. Where 7th Marines has been overworked with every battalion having either five or six combat deployments since the start of the wars, others are hovering more around two or three. Look at 1st Battalion, 1st Marines. Those guys didn't deploy once until 2007. Iraq was going on for four years before that battalion got into the fight, and to date that's their only deployment.

    We're not stretched thin by any means. We just want to give our people the most dwell time we can and commit less troops. We haven't backed off on anything globally. If you'll notice our worldwide deployment of troops remains largely the same as it ever has, with just an upslope in A-stan and Iraq and some other trouble spots. Alarmists always post articles showing we are overstretched or pushing ourselves to the breaking point which isn't true. They use weak evidence like PTSD cases, or find those most bedraggled by the war to complain an interview to try and illustrate how tired the troops are. It's a farce.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Iraq or Afghanistan?

    Cursing at a person who is not around to reply is an excellent way to make a point that people will consider seriously.
    I can't believe that America is that short on men that they have to choose between Iraq and Afghanistan?
    We aren't, technically.. s.rwitt is one of the more vocal people on this board in pointing out that there are entire divisions of Marines, not to mention soldiers, sitting around stateside waiting for deployment.

    But compared to the amount of men that were both available and used during Vietnam, the military is quite small. In Vietnam for example, a man could be sent on one year-long tour and be done with it, whereas Iraq and Afghanistan have become virtual revolving doors, with two or three tours not uncommon. Those tours are just becoming shorter and shorter, sometimes only six months. Keep in mind that even though total military forces are near two million, not all of these are combat infantry or other personnel that can have an immediate impact on operations. The vast majority are support personnel; not any less useful individually or as a group, but something altogether different than boots on the ground doing patrols, training indigenous forces, and building infrastructure.

    This is one of the reasons why the training of national forces in Iraq and Afghanistan is of such dire necessity -- the only realistic military alternative for maintaining the requisite level of constant force readiness in-country would be conscription, and I for one would not accept it under the current conditions.
    Last edited by motiv-8; November 09, 2009 at 01:08 PM.
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    Default Re: Iraq or Afghanistan?

    Quote Originally Posted by motiv-8 View Post
    Cursing at a person who is not around to reply is an excellent way to make a point that people will consider seriously.
    .
    it's called prayer

    @cap'n jin
    so if we're not stretched thin as the media would have us believe, why isnt the government taking up general mcchrystal's demand for ~40,000 more troops ?

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    Default Re: Iraq or Afghanistan?

    Quote Originally Posted by Exarch View Post
    it's called prayer

    @cap'n jin
    so if we're not stretched thin as the media would have us believe, why isnt the government taking up general mcchrystal's demand for ~40,000 more troops ?
    Cause it's all a matter of politics. Obama steps up the war there with more troops than people against the war get angry, those are voters... modern media and the civilians thinking they should be a part of every major military decision is actually the most detrimental to any war effort since Korea. While Obama waffles on the idea of dropping more troops in, those that are there are forced to work harder. Did they ask the public which Japanese island to invade back in WWII? No, we knew what had to happen to finish the job and we did it. But now, because of the population thinking it knows what's going on, and the internet filled with so-called military experts, we sit on 40,000 troops.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Iraq or Afghanistan?

    Not necessarily. When it is a case between good and evil, being neutral is a crime.
    The problem is that good-evil juxtapositions aren't sound grounds for international politics. Rather sloppy, actually.
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  18. #18

    Default Re: Iraq or Afghanistan?

    Obama? Incompetent?

    Tell me something new.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Iraq or Afghanistan?

    There is a middle way tou realize? It is called U.N

  20. #20
    Nevins's Avatar Semper Gumby
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    Default Re: Iraq or Afghanistan?

    Quote Originally Posted by AthiNeos View Post
    There is a middle way tou realize? It is called U.N
    ? A middle way to get mired in bureaucratic nonsense and have nothing come of it?
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