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  1. #1

    Default Concerning Attachments and Engaged Buddhism

    Hiya guys.

    This is the first on a series of "bloggy" things that I plan to do in this and the Philosophy part of the forums. Let me introduce myself, I'm probably one of the guys of usual age here in the forums, no older than sixteen years at the moment, although I will turn seventeen within two weeks.

    In any case, let's get to the point. Generally, I follow the Vajrayana school of Buddhism.

    As I guess is normal for people, unless your shacked up in some monastery in the middle of nowhere, I have friends. And to add to that, I know virtually no people of my age who are Buddhist, or have taken an interest in Buddhism. To add to that, most of my friends are either Christian or Atheist (we have one Satanist girl, but I won't go into that now, she's just crazy [/Walken accent]).

    So anyway, one of the things that has come up many times in conversations concerning Buddhism (as I have explained my view on it, which might differ from other views) and the attachment to emotions and possessions. One of my best friend's boyfriend has committed suicide about a year ago, which was, of course, a major shock on her (even though they only knew eachother for about two months). So, of course, apart from being a girl (who always have their bloody monthly party) she has suffered from a great deal of stress, which I guess is normal after someone "close" to you has committed suicide.

    Her father and brother are both atheists, and have also asked me several concerning the Buddhist ideas of detachment from earthly desires, which I sometimes, had a quite hard time explaining. So generally, I've been thinking about this subject for the last few weeks.

    In Buddhism, it is generally believed that the way to Nirvana is by severing ourselves from earthly desires. But wait a moment, if it's the desire and not the possession itself that defines the problem, what would the problem be with feeling attachment to certain things.

    Of course, attachment can be found in virtually anything. If my pc decides to shut down now, I'll probably get (mildly) annoyed and perhaps throw a few cursewords unto the thing. So you could state that I am, of the moment, attached to my computer.

    If we follow this logic, we had better shut ourselves out from the world, because we will get attached and we will suffer once we lose it, we are actually losing what I see as one of the most valuable lessons the Buddha thought: "Do not take my words for granted; go out and experience the world, and accept or deny my words based on your experience of the world." (It's not literally that, but the essence of what he said).

    So in any case, how can a Buddhist be a Buddhist and still help others, feeling emotional attachment to them. To be honest, I think the answer lies in your relationship with that person. Once you have accepted that your relationship with this person is not eternal and that someday, this relationship will no longer exist, you will have come a long way.

    The essence of Buddhist teaching was traditionally, becoming a Buddha. In Mahayana Buddhism, that goal is actually put aside for the moment and the main objective is to become a Bodhisattva, a person bound to this world solely by his or her compassion for others. So shutting yourself out from the world and experiencing the feeling of compassion doesn't exactly go hand-in-hand, now does it?

    So the ultimate Bodhisattva, in my opinion, would be bound to people, not by a selfish emotion of "to have", but by the altruistic thought of "to share". And this, in essence, is what altruism is all about. There are the rationalists who say that pure altruism is factually non-existent, and we only perform altruistic acts to satisfy moral or emotional needs, which is indeed, egocentrical.

    But would it really matter? If a Christian helps a person in need with the underlying thought being "If I do this, I'll secure my spot in Heaven", does it matter to the person which is helped? I don't really think so. Even if he finds out, what's he gonna do? Make the man suffer who helped him? I don't think so.

    But true altruism is an act performed without even having the notion that you are performing an altruistic act. And this act is an act performed by the Bodhisattva. The Bodhisattva doesn't need to perform this act for him/herself, as that person is already close to enlightenment. The only reason (if there's any reason involved) is the Bodhisattvas pure compassion for other people.

    Even if we cannot do this, I think that Buddhists and non-Buddhists alike can try and achieve at least feeling the same form of compassion the Boddhisattva feels.

    If we could try and do just this; not to reason for ourselves, but for others, then perhaps we can achieve something really good.

    And this is where the notion of attachment comes back. Attachment itself isn't bad, it's the acceptance that this attachment is in fact useless and impermanent. Realization is the first step, acceptance the second. But y'know, as the Buddha said, don't take my words for granted. But do try and look at the world in another way. Don't stay stuck in your point of views, but rather, try and live every day as a new day.

    - Elphir

    For those people interested, the sect I follow is called Shingon and is a derivative of the Chinese Zhen Yan, which is extinct. The founder of Shingon was a man called Kukai, who was taught by a Gandharan.
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  2. #2
    Arch-hereticK's Avatar Indefinitely Banned
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    Default Re: Concerning Attachments and Engaged Buddhism

    Do you think you'd act much differently if you had never found Buddhism?

  3. #3

    Default Re: Concerning Attachments and Engaged Buddhism

    @Elphir,

    Hi!

    Vajrayana Buddhism has a number of things in it, per se, which reflect I believe Original Buddhism:

    A. Yogi(s)/Yogini(s)
    B. Monk
    C. Householders

    Now regarding attachment, What IS attachment?

    Is it not MY nationality, country, intellectual prowess, my level of insight in regards to Buddhadharma, my income, my appearance, etc.?

    Attachment is NOT: I need food, clothing, shelter and in many cases a car. These are facts. We don't need to cling to facts, just accept them and stay cool and balanced no matter what. That is an aspect of "attachment."

    I think the first and last thing we must understand is that attachment to our SELVES, or rather the false notion of ourselves is key and paramount.

    I believe that Original Buddhism taught the there was a real self but it wasn't the skhandas.
    The issue is to transcend the personal self for the real Self.

    Can we die while we live? That my friend is the first and last DIS-attachment.
    hellas1
    Last edited by hellas1; November 06, 2009 at 07:13 PM.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Concerning Attachments and Engaged Buddhism

    ArchHereticK: Well, I always believed that true compassion didn't really exist, only in the self-gratifying way.

    Civilization: Pardon me for not typing all the characters, hehe. Well, the essence of Buddhism is of course not nihilistic in the negative sense. I think that when we come to think about the terms "good and evil", we will find that these are constructs we created to be able to define the world properly. I think that all actions have their root, and true good and evil don't really exist as we often say they are. I had a thought on this a while back, but I've seem to forgotten it. I'll write it down immediately the next time.


    Hellas1: Hi! It's always good to read your posts as they are always of an enlightened nature and give a different insight on several subjects. Note that I follow the Japanese Vajrayana tradition, and they place their focus on recitation rather than meditation. Meditation is also practiced, but the most important thing is recitation (also found in Nichiren and Sokka Gakkai International).

    When it comes to attachments, I think you made a very good point on the point of attachment. Perhaps this real self is a form of realization that all is indeed empty? I don't know, I'll tell you when I get there. By the way, it's time I disattached myself from my computer and went to bed, haha.
    This space intentionally left blank.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Concerning Attachments and Engaged Buddhism

    @Elphir,

    No my friend, Buddha taught meditation NOT recitation of Nikayas and Mantras to reach Nirvana!

    If that is what your school teaches, you should leave it/abandon it TODAY!

    Please understand, real Buddhadharma is not reciting verses and mantras all day, it is REALIZATION OF WHAT IS.

    hellas1- Goodnight.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Concerning Attachments and Engaged Buddhism

    Quote Originally Posted by hellas1 View Post
    @Elphir,

    No my friend, Buddha taught meditation NOT recitation of Nikayas and Mantras to reach Nirvana!

    If that is what your school teaches, you should leave it/abandon it TODAY!

    Please understand, real Buddhadharma is not reciting verses and mantras all day, it is REALIZATION OF WHAT IS.

    hellas1- Goodnight.
    Buddhism isn't based around Siddhārtha Gautama, like Christianity is based on Jesus. But on becoming a Buddha and attaining Nirvana. Gautama has only been the most explicative on his path of attaining Nirvana. And many people choose to follow that path and have been successful. But does that mean there are no other paths?
    Last edited by Jabberwock; November 07, 2009 at 12:59 AM.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Concerning Attachments and Engaged Buddhism

    Well, I guess my point of view when it comes to people would be way different than it is now. I've learned that compassion is a really important value and that we can actually change the lives of people if we bring ourselves to it. I've also learned that everything is a lesson on its own. I might have found that without Buddhism, but perhaps not as fast.
    This space intentionally left blank.

  8. #8
    Arch-hereticK's Avatar Indefinitely Banned
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    Default Re: Concerning Attachments and Engaged Buddhism

    Did you not believe that compassion was an important tool before?

  9. #9

    Default Re: Concerning Attachments and Engaged Buddhism

    Literally having no attachments does make sense though if you understand the goal of buddhism. Buddhism is ultimately a nihilistic philosophy in that the ultimate goal is to exit existence. This means one should not be attached to existed or else one will be unable to leave. Buddhism seeks to avoid and end suffering and this is not a philosophy I hold to. Existence itself is good in my opinion and thus since suffering is an integral part of existence it too is good. Therefore, I have some respect for buddhists but we hold to fundementally different axioms and thus I cannot be buddhist myself.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Concerning Attachments and Engaged Buddhism

    I was born and raised a Theradava Buddhist as my parents are Sri Lankan (Singhalese) in origin, and I have this to say regarding the above conversation: there is no real use debating the finer points of Buddhism, assuming that none of us on this forum are monks, were are not equipped to debate such things effectively.

    As a lay Buddhist, I reccomend that you meditate daily for at least 5 minutes as an absolute minimum, follow the Five Preceipts and in general just try to become a good, productive member of society. If you would like to discuss Buddhist theory I suggest you find a local Temple (this may be hard depending on which country you live in, although I can assure you that you should be able to find one in the US, UK or Australia fairly easily) and speak with one of the monks there.

    @Elphir,

    No my friend, Buddha taught meditation NOT recitation of Nikayas and Mantras to reach Nirvana!

    If that is what your school teaches, you should leave it/abandon it TODAY!

    Please understand, real Buddhadharma is not reciting verses and mantras all day, it is REALIZATION OF WHAT IS.
    I couldn't agree with this more, especially the last sentence.

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Concerning Attachments and Engaged Buddhism

    Quote Originally Posted by Elphir View Post
    But would it really matter? If a Christian helps a person in need with the underlying thought being "If I do this, I'll secure my spot in Heaven", does it matter to the person which is helped? I don't really think so. Even if he finds out, what's he gonna do? Make the man suffer who helped him? I don't think so.
    Yes, you can be wrong about many things that don't matter and it won't matter.

  12. #12
    Ummon's Avatar Indefinitely Banned
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    Default Re: Concerning Attachments and Engaged Buddhism

    Detached and unattached are different, of course.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Concerning Attachments and Engaged Buddhism

    @Akira112,

    Regarding your quote:

    "There is no real use debating the finer points of Buddhism, assuming that none of us on this forum are monks, were are not equipped to debate such things effectively."

    I beg to differ sir. At NO time did the Buddha say to NOT discuss his teachings! Rather he DID say to do or live them and see if they are true or not.

    I don't want to debate, I want to discuss. Period.

    ALSO,
    Regarding the "finer points" of Buddhism, I think we need to RE-establish what Original Buddhadharma was and not look at the schism which caused the "24 schools" nonsense 200-300 yrs. after the Buddha died.

    I don't believe that Theravada is representative of Original Buddhadharma nor do I think that any schools come close other than the Tibetan Vajrayana and Ch'an/Zen traditions.

    The other 23 schools are now dead. The only ones around are Sthaviravada or Theravada and Mahayana and every school in existence is merely a branch off that.

    hellasamsaranibbana1

  14. #14
    Genius of the Restoration's Avatar You beaut and magical
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    Default Re: Concerning Attachments and Engaged Buddhism

    Just a brief comment hellas1,
    Does it matter if they were later traditions? If they teach a different way to bodhi that the Buddha didn't know about it's just as valuable in my opinion.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Concerning Attachments and Engaged Buddhism

    I would just point out that non-attachment is in a sense negative, and something of a retreat from life. it’s a worthy cause but at 17 I would have been enjoying attachment, one has to look at what it brings you in either case. The older and wiser you get + the more unattached you become, the more you wont relate to ordinary lifestyle things e.g. women and family, material possessions, this is why monks generally live a kind of hermitic life.

    Perhaps attachment is necessary when young, although it is good that you seek its opposite, something of a balance is required perhaps.

    Formerly quetzalcoatl. Proud leader of STW3 and member of the RTR, FATW and QNS teams.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Concerning Attachments and Engaged Buddhism

    I would just point out that non-attachment is in a sense negative, and something of a retreat from life.
    Which is the exact opposite of what the Buddha thought about experience. Disattaching is not about distancing, it's about accepting. I think there's a difference.
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  17. #17

    Default Re: Concerning Attachments and Engaged Buddhism

    Disattaching is not about distancing, it's about accepting.
    Accepting is a kind of attachment surely ~ at least in most cases? I also think Buddhist retreats are named so for a reason.
    Formerly quetzalcoatl. Proud leader of STW3 and member of the RTR, FATW and QNS teams.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Concerning Attachments and Engaged Buddhism

    @Quetz.,


    Hey man!

    No brother, Accepting is not a kind of attachment.

    Why? Here's the qualifier:
    Bodily needs: Food, Clothing, Shelter
    Mental needs: Light (To avoid SAD) and Mental equipoise or Balance to avoid mental disturbances like going nuts.

    Accepting doesn't mean attaching it means to see things as they ARE and not to get mentally caught up in the past "I.E. past events, memories, and hurts) and not to project ONTO something or someone in the present or fantasize about a future which hasn't even happened.

    We've always got to quality what we mean whenever we "go into" a system, per se, of philosophy/belief/religion. Right man? I think so.

    Later,
    hellasamsaranibbana1

  19. #19

    Default Re: Concerning Attachments and Engaged Buddhism

    Hi hellas

    No brother, Accepting is not a kind of attachment.
    I see your points but one also needs families which involves sex and material comforts, you could live without much of it, but try telling that to your kids lols. All I am saying is that one needs to balance things out over a lifetime, non-attachment can be more fully implemented later in life. Equally don’t we need the comparatives? I would go as far as saying that teenagers should be teenagers, partying etc, you cant do it when your older so indulge oneself, then later upon reflection learn from experience ~ but you gotta have the experiences first right!.
    Formerly quetzalcoatl. Proud leader of STW3 and member of the RTR, FATW and QNS teams.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Concerning Attachments and Engaged Buddhism

    I myself dabbled in Mahayana Buddhism and the discovery of enlightment from within rather reverence of something without for about a year. But I took it too far and too stoic. I don't think that you necessarily have to extinguish all of your human cravings to see truth, if there even is such a thing. I mean, a great deal of it is something we need to survive.
    Heir to Noble Savage in the Imperial House of Wilpuri

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