attack, defend, enable defend mode, shieldwall etc...

[tallstark]

Hi all, I am 100% a cavalry guy so I decided to try my hands at dwarves LOL and I realize I really do not fully understand how most infantry battles are handled. I just used them before to hold up enemies so I could charge, and now I need some help. Has anyone done a tutorial on when to attack, when to defend, how much it REALLY helps to do defend mode or shieldwall etc??? My main question is, say a unit has 10 attack, 20 defend. The other guy has 10 attack, 20 defend. If unit 1 is the one who intiates contact, how does that work?

[Lordinquisitor]

What- Well, maybe some basic information will clear things up.

An Unit has the following "skills" The exact formulas are unknown to me, but an higher value is usually better.:

Attack- An higher attack implies an higher chance to hit his target.

Charge- Charge is an bonus to attack, granted to an attacking unit.

Defence- An higher defence increases the chance of avoiding an blow. It doesn`t help against arrows, though.

Armor- An higher Armour increases the Chance of not losing an hit point when being hit.

Shield- An Shield protects just like Armour does, but not if the hit/arrow comes from behind or from the shieldless side.

Defend mode does nothing. It just keeps your unit from moving- Useful if you have to hold a line and you don`t want them to chase routing enemies.

Shieldwall will move your units closer together- This will make it more difficult for enemies to break through. They also gain an defence boost; Whether this boost is an boost to the defence, armour, or shield skill i don`t know.

And when to attack or to defend is easy. If the opponent moves to you; Defend and use some units to flank him. If he doesn`t move, attack. Always flank, and always try to avoid prolonged melees- Send the enemy routing!

[Valiant Champion]

Defend mode does nothing. It just keeps your unit from moving- Useful if you have to hold a line and you don`t want them to chase routing enemies.

!

That is not exactly the whole story on guard mode. It also causes the unit to maintain its square formation even when attacking and in melee the unit will attempt to maintain its cohesion. This also helps a unit hold onto its morale a little better and it fatigues less. The down side is that it tends to take more casualties on defend mode than attack but it takes place over a longer time period enabling flanking units to deliver a killing charge.

Also defend mode increases the defence stat but decreases attack. It is assumed this is a bonus to defence skill.

[CBCRonin]

That is not exactly the whole story on guard mode. It also causes the unit to maintain its square formation even when attacking and in melee the unit will attempt to maintain its cohesion. This also helps a unit hold onto its morale a little better and it fatigues less. The down side is that it tends to take more casualties on defend mode than attack but it takes place over a longer time period enabling flanking units to deliver a killing charge.

Also defend mode increases the defence stat but decreases attack. It is assumed this is a bonus to defence skill.

I'm not entirely sure, as I'm just going on battles I have fought, but defense mode also seems to slow fatigue loss.
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To OP: Shieldwall acts very differently, depending on whether the unit are spearmen or melee.

Dwarven warriors/melee in shieldwall, become incredible assault troops. Dwarves will attack with such ferocity that they literally throw enemies into the air as they push forward, but as they seperate and move into the enemy line they become more vulnerable to attack.

I haven't had much success with shieldwall and defense mode enabled at the same time (for Dwarves), as the front line will still seperate from the group and attack. It does keep the majority of them from running off after a fleeing enemy though.

I like to think that the Dwarven shieldwall ability, is more like a coiled snake than soley a defensive tool. It does increase their defense, especially versus arrows, but also allows them to engage with ferocity when contact is made.

If a player times it just right, one unit of shielwalled Dwarven warriors can even beat Rhunish Flag Rim quite easily (a more expensive unit). If fully spread out in shieldwall, and ordered to attack just as the Flag Rim raise their axes for the final charge..... Dwarven warriors will crash into their line like a thunderbolt and decimate them. (If timing is off, they will likely still win but with greater casualties).
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Shieldwall in city streets makes a great "Street sweeper", but you must be careful to micro-manage.... otherwise your unit will move so far into the enemy line that they will suffer horrendous casualties.

[Kawee]

It's quite hard to flank as dwarves though, they're so slow and chances are you'll have less unit counts. Good thing they're tough as nails.

My advice to you is to engage as many of the enemy units as possible with the least amount of your units. Your dwarven units are so tough anyway, they'll hold out for quite a while. Then you can use whatever's left, probably just one or two unit left to flank.

[Momus]

For dwarves, just flank on one side with all your spare units - this will cause a cascade effect as you move along the battle line cos of the morale drop when nearby units start routing combines with a swamping by dwarves and then just work your way across

[Vaz]

Have Throwing Axes on the flanks. AP causes 50% armour reduction, and flanking causes 50% shield reduction, and being ranged, ignores defensive skill. So if a target has 8 Armour, 8 Shield, and 4 Defence, and you flank with Throwing axes, instead of 20 Defence, your target has 8 Defence in total against them.

Shields no longer have "shielded sides" - i.e Right Side isn't less shielded than the left. I think that's a hold over from R:TW. Instead, now, they gain full benefit to the front, and 50% benefit to the sides, and nothing from the rear.

Dwarves CAN afford prolonged melee's though. Combined with Very_Hary, Good Discipline and morale, and excellent defence and Close Combat Stats, only elite elves can match them. But then again, with Archers and cavalry, any elite elven force outclasses Dwarves.

[Lordinquisitor]

So- No shieldsides anymore? Well, thanks for clearing this up, Vaz. I indeed thought it was handled like in Rome.

But while you are right that dwarves can afford prolonged melees they shoulnd`t if not necessary.

[Blackorc]

High class elves vs high class dwarves the dwarves will win.
Cavalry isn't usefull against vault warden or iron guard and will be slaughtered easy.
And I played a battle against the dwarves with the high elves my 10 units of eldar archers didn't even kil 5% of his army. Also the shieldwall is verry usefull on bridge fightings. Because if the enemy charges you, your dwarves will trample your enemies with shieldwall

[Vaz]

High class elves vs high class dwarves the dwarves will win.
Cavalry isn't usefull against vault warden or iron guard and will be slaughtered easy.
And I played a battle against the dwarves with the high elves my 10 units of eldar archers didn't even kil 5% of his army. Also the shieldwall is verry usefull on bridge fightings. Because if the enemy charges you, your dwarves will trample your enemies with shieldwall

I've not played Multiplayer, so that's a moot point. But I was able to thrash the dwarven AI on VH/VH with a single stack versus 3 stacks, lead by 2 8+ Star Generals.

Shieldwall merely increases your defence, but lowers your attack, and their mass stays the same.

On bridge fight, the Cavalry have a long straight stretch with which they can charge down - Iron Crossbowmen should stake it, and then swap with Vault Wardens/Dragonslayers to shoot down the flank.

Here's a quick guide on the available targets for dwarves for your Elven Archers to do the most damage -

The numbers in brackets refers to their defence to the front, the side and the rear from ranged attacks. If all the numbers are the same, then you can shoot at them from any side with no difference in effect.

Miners (8/8/8)
Halberdmen (9/9/9)
Warriors (13/11/9)
Axemen (10/10/10)
Vault Wardens (6/6/6)
Iron Guard (20/17.5/15)
Iron Crossbowmen (10/9/8)
Axethrowers (9/9/9)
Erebor Axes (13/13/13)
Dragonslayers (18/15/12)
Guards of Khazad Dum (23/20.5/18)
Ballista Crew (2/2/2)
Catapult (4/4/4)

Now, out of those, there are some targets which you should never target with ranged attacks - it's quite obvious - Khazad Dum, and Iron Guard particularly, as well as Dragonslayers from the front.

If you have generals or Lancers, and see Vault Wardens, or Halberdmen, bring them down ASAP - they're relatively light, but the first ones get +8 bonus verses Cavalry from the spear, and a +4 from the pike, for a total of +12. The latter have only +4 bonus all told, but they also have AP, meaning that armour value is reduced by 50% in addition to the +4 bonus against Cavalry.

However, they also have relatively lower range armour though than other units, and are the same on all sides, so you can shoot from the center.

If you see Warriors and Erebor Axemen, there's no difference between Erebor Axemen if you are shooting them in the front, and very little extra benefit if you are flanking the warriors - it's only if you get to the rear are their benefits - so just shoot the Axemen. Even though both the dwarves have AP, the Erebor Axemen have 10 Attack, boosted to 16 on the charge, as well as 16 Armour in Combat all round, whereas Dwarven Warriors have 6 Attack, and 10 on the charge, and have the same armour, but only to the front.

Don't send cavalry to attack Crossbows or Axethrowers - they have AP Ranged attacks, and the Crossbowmen have Stakes, and both have AP attacks in CC, despite low defence (12 and 11 respectively). Leave your infantry to deal with them, or even militia.

[k/t]

If you have generals or Lancers, and see Vault Wardens, or Halberdmen, bring them down ASAP - they're relatively light, but the first ones get +8 bonus verses Cavalry from the spear, and a +4 from the pike, for a total of +12. The latter have only +4 bonus all told, but they also have AP, meaning that armour value is reduced by 50% in addition to the +4 bonus against Cavalry.

Is this how the anti-cavalry bonus works? Why would the pikedwarves get +12? It says only +8.

[Withwnar]

Dwarves CAN afford prolonged melee's though. Combined with Very_Hary, Good Discipline and morale...

That's racist man.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Lordinquisitor]

I dare say; If you use elves with an decent amount of archers, and especially cavalry, the dwarves stand no chance.

[Kawee]

The fact that Elven archers don't have AP attribute makes it hard for them to kill a lot of dwarves from frontal missile attacks.

Obviously....dwarves are the best at siege. But in the open field, in a dwarves vs elves battle it comes down to one thing "mobility." If the elves can use their superior mobility to out-flank the dwarves they will probably win. But if they can't and it's just a prolong frontal charge, with both sides struggling to outmaneuver the other then I fancy the dwarves.

[FriendoftheDork]

Hmm although most here is right, I'd be careful about generalizing too much. I've defeated Iron Guards with Variag Raiders (horse archers) and cataphracts. Sure if you have anything better to shoot at there are better targets, but even heavily armored iron guards suffer a few casualties from sustain archer fire (even in RC).

Also, guard mode lowers fatigue considerably, even normal soldiers can outlast very hardy tropps (unless killed of course). Try it inside a town square for full effect and unless extremely outnumbered or attacked by elites (such as iron guards) your tropps will probably be winded when the enemy routs (suffering morale penalties for being exhausted).

Shield walls I have no experience with, and the few times I've tried it my troops either move slowly and get killed by archers (shields not compensating for lack of speed), or spreading out suffering more casualties when engaged in a melee. I'll have to test the ultra agressive shieldwall attack routine

BTW try to get some dalian merc. cav, so you can at least mop up routers and do a little flanking, you'll have to rely on infantry tactics mostly though. Should not be a problem early on, just beware of balchot tribesmen and the bodyguards and you should do fine.

[Vaz]

Shieldwall+Guard mode should only be used when you are in charge range. Never use it without, or else they break formation, and that's not the reason you chose shield wall.

When moving, the move slower (formed up) AND are an easier target. Against Poor Archers they're fine, as they scatter over a wide area. But Elven Archers and Horse Archers WON'T miss, so it's counter intuitive.

[Muffer Nl]

Use shieldwall to quickly cut thorugh enemy lines at higher costs. Enable it, click behind the enemy and watch those dragonslayers do their thing

[Vaz]

Spears grant an innate +4 Bonus against Cav, and -4 against infantry, but have a +8 in addition against Cav, so +4+8=+12.

[Muffer Nl]

There is a seperate bonus that can be given ti units. A spear_bonus. It greatly improves the attack VS cavalry by any weapon. You can even give it to archers on both their primary and secondary weapons (I only made Longbowmen once ) I believe that this is a multiplier rather then an actual +8 to attack.

[k/t]

My understanding was that spearmen without the attribute "bonus against cavalry" get +4, while those with the attribute get +8. And now you're telling me spearmen get -4 against infantry? But that makes things like Armoured Sergeants absolute trash.