Remember remember, the fifth of November.

**dogukan** · November 04, 2009, 04:52 PM

Remember, remember the fifth of November,The gunpowder treason and plot,I know of no reasonWhy the gunpowder treasonShould ever be forgot.
or from the movie

Remember, remember, the Fifth of November, the Gunpowder Treason and Plot. I know of no reason why the Gunpowder Treason should ever be forgot...

But what of the man? I know his name was Guy Fawkes and I know, in 1605, he attempted to blow up the Houses of Parliament. But who was he really? What was he like? We are told to remember the idea, not the man, because a man can fail.

He can be caught, he can be killed and forgotten, but 400 years later, an idea can still change the world. I've witnessed first hand the power of ideas, I've seen people kill in the name of them, and die defending them...

But you cannot kiss an idea, cannot touch it, or hold it... ideas do not bleed, they do not feel pain, they do not love... And it is not an idea that I miss, it is a man...

A man that made me remember the Fifth of November.

A man that I will never forget.

today is the day. Do not forget people, ideas are bulletproof.
(V for Vendetta has a big impact on my life)

propoganda/

Anyways, on topic, I'll have a question. We have always heard about strict ways of Catholics. But what happened to Catholics after Protestant reformation? I'm guessing they suffered most in England?
Also, how exactly was reformation in France? As far as I know they did not convert to Protestanism ....they then went French and became the most open-mided nation for a while.

Another question of mine will be regarding Guy Fawkes. What do people in England think about him? I like what he did, fighting against the oppressive government. But then, was he a strong Catholic, or did he just want equality?

**G-Megas-Doux** · November 04, 2009, 05:17 PM

To most people in England we do not really think about the Gunpowder plot, it has become just a day for young people to watch fireworks and have bonfires with an effigy of Guy Fawkes burning on it. Occasionally we will see programs discussing what he did and how they were caught but it is not really a big thing to most British people.

In regards to the reformation, in France there were the Huguenots and the Wars of Religion which were very violent, the first Bourbon King Henry IV was at first King of Navarre and a staunch Huguenot in fact he was the leader but he was compelled to give it up to become the King of France. He became a Catholic and the French fought against the Huguenots for a very long time.

In England there was the dissolution of the monasteries where the church lands were taken over by the crown and its wealth confiscated many abbeys were torn down. Following the death of Henry VIII and his son Edward VI the throne went to Queen Mary I. She has been referred to as bloody Mary for her fervent Catholicism and persecution of the Protestants. Following Mary Elizabeth came to the throne being a Protestant and her claim to the throne being reliant on such a position Mary had wanted to execute her so Elizabeth was actually in the tower when Mary died.

Elizabeth was known to have favoured the Protestants over Catholics and there were persecutions.

After the reformation anyway it was against the law to hold an office of state and be a Catholic. It remained on the Statute books until the Duke of Wellington managed to pass a bill through Parliament during his stint as Prime Minister. One of the things that lead to Charles I’s problems before the civil war was his wish to treat Catholics fairly he had a Catholic wife who was the King of France’s daughter. In Ireland it had been worse as Catholics could not own land. The Catholic King James II had used Catholic support in the attempt to keep his thrown, see the Glorious Revolution, Act of Settlement and the old Pretender, new Pretender as topics to research.

Catholicism has been a concern to the monarchy even recently, members of the Royal Family have been allowed to convert but they and their descendents must forfit their place in the line of succession.

This is a broad overview.

**Gelgoog** · November 04, 2009, 05:18 PM

I think what guy fawkes did was heroic....but that is only because I am related to him

**Niles Crane** · November 04, 2009, 05:43 PM

Originally Posted by scheuch13

I think what guy fawkes did was heroic....but that is only because I am related to him

Terrorists are heroes now?

**Aonghus G. Friedhold** · November 04, 2009, 05:52 PM

Originally Posted by Octy

Terrorists are heroes now?

Terrorists have always been heroes to those that believe in their cause.

**The Unvirginzer** · November 04, 2009, 07:07 PM

So you guys celebrate a failed attempt at terrorism? I guess anything's a good excuse when you want to get drunk and light stuff on fire.

**G-Megas-Doux** · November 04, 2009, 07:33 PM

Originally Posted by The Unvirginzer

So you guys celebrate a failed attempt at terrorism? I guess anything's a good excuse when you want to get drunk and light stuff on fire.

It makes more sense then celebrating a successful attempt at terrorism doesn’t it?

**Yorkshireman** · November 05, 2009, 06:37 AM

Originally Posted by The Unvirginzer

So you guys celebrate a failed attempt at terrorism? I guess anything's a good excuse when you want to get drunk and light stuff on fire.

Its a celebration that the plot did'nt succeed.

Originally Posted by G-Megas-Doux

Guy Fawkes was an Italian called Guido I forget his surname but it was made to sound more English in the history books

He was English, a Yorkshireman in fact, he changed his name whilst in Spanish service.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guy_Fawkes

**Rapax** · November 04, 2009, 08:16 PM

Originally Posted by Octy

Terrorists are heroes now?

If you're related to them.

**Niles Crane** · November 05, 2009, 02:03 AM

Originally Posted by Rapax

If you're related to them.

That doesn't seem to have much to do with it. Besides, it's an extremely distant relation for this fellow.

**Gelgoog** · November 05, 2009, 04:39 PM

Originally Posted by Octy

That doesn't seem to have much to do with it. Besides, it's an extremely distant relation for this fellow.

well its a direct lineage. Its not like saying I am related to ghangis khan in which half of mongolia also is. I was also being tongue in cheek( as your brits call it).

It is not like being a national hero in which everyone wants to be associated with that name

**dogukan** · November 05, 2009, 06:29 AM

Originally Posted by Octy

Terrorists are heroes now?

if their cause is to destroy an even wider terror, yes. Your terrorist, my hero. It's relative.

thanks Megas

**Niles Crane** · November 05, 2009, 06:32 AM

Originally Posted by dogukan

if their cause is to destroy an even wider terror, yes. Your terrorist, my hero. It's relative.

thanks Megas

Guy Fawkes cannot be equated with the character V. Nor can their two "enemies".

**dogukan** · November 05, 2009, 06:49 AM

Originally Posted by Octy

Guy Fawkes cannot be equated with the character V. Nor can their two "enemies".

This is not about backing Guy Fawkes. It is completely symbolic. Guy Fawkes ACTS against a force oppresing people. That is what matters. And if he uses brutal ways against an organisation that would act brutal if they knew his ideas, I'd say his way was justified.

**Dodge** · November 04, 2009, 05:51 PM

What is it with Catholics and blowing things up, some things never change.

**Stavroforos** · November 04, 2009, 08:42 PM

I would only celebrate if it was carried out.

**Dr. Oza** · November 04, 2009, 09:11 PM

basically the french after Henry IV and including him were more interested in national unity rather than have a homogenous religion.

and same with the english

they cared more for secular power rather than religion ... mostly after westphalia but rulers such as Elizabeth and Catherine D' Medici show this type of "politique" behavior as well

**clandestino** · November 05, 2009, 06:52 AM

Also, how exactly was reformation in France? As far as I know they did not convert to Protestanism ....they then went French and became the most open-mided nation for a while.

Good part of French population became calvinist in 16th century but then the religious war broke out between Catholics and Protestants, the war was eventually ended with Edict of Nantes 1598 which gave protestants sizable rights and freedoms, however during next century Crown managed to restrain most of those rights and started to harass protestants ( dragonades ) until most of them converted back to catholicism. As for being open minded I think that Night of saint Bartholomew speaks for itself.

**~~Barry Ferguson~~** · November 05, 2009, 09:36 AM

Actually, I think the gunpowder plot was more politically motivated against the Stuarts than about religion. At this time were was no mass oppression of Catholics in England, that came with the Civil War and Glorious Revolution.

I don't understand why Guy Fawkes suddenly became a hero. He was a mercenary, doing it for the money. And how exactly is it heroic that he wanted to blow up Parliament? Why is it heroic if a Catholic minority attacks a Protestant majority? Transfer 'Muslim' for @Catholic' and it becomes a different kettle of fish

**Thalassocrat** · November 05, 2009, 09:43 AM

Originally Posted by Barry Ferguson

I don't understand why Guy Fawkes suddenly became a hero. He was a mercenary, doing it for the money. And how exactly is it heroic that he wanted to blow up Parliament? Why is it heroic if a Catholic minority attacks a Protestant majority? Transfer 'Muslim' for @Catholic' and it becomes a different kettle of fish

I don't think Guy Fawkes is celebrated....they burn his effigies.....

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