Pike and muskets in custom battles.

**Valiant Champion** · November 04, 2009, 01:13 AM

Okay I set up Portugal and some of the other unused factions for custom battles.

Aventuros are devastating without taking away their secondary weapons. You can really appreciate them with the improved pike leveled animation where the pikes arent held at an angle until after the melee starts.

My problem is with the Musketeers.

Portuguese arquebusiers work fine.

All musketeers including cossacks and Jannisary will crash on battle start up. I thought it might be musket_bullet but I have added musket bullet to Arquebusiers and it works. I guess it might be the model of the weapon itself might have been borrowed for something else.

Kinda brings up the idea that perhaps pikemen in the game should be given back secondary weapons for a more realistic animation so you dont have pike shafts sticking halfway through models in melee. When you think about it in the third age what few pikes are used are not taken very seriously compared to other units so that because of their low stats they arent even very effective versus cavalry.

Eventually I might find some rebel province on the campaign map near the western coast that I can give to the portuguese. "The men from across the sea have returned, and they brought boomsticks and baslisks"

**Muffer Nl** · November 04, 2009, 01:46 AM

The pikemen are real killers UNLESS they use their secondary weapon.

**Valiant Champion** · November 04, 2009, 09:08 AM

It may be because I am using the spacing mod ((o.8 file, 1.8 rank) but pikemen seem to work pretty well in the custom battles I have set up.

I will match them up against Isengard Pike Orcs to see which is more formidable.

Why are musketeers causing a crash but Arquebusiers are not? It doesnt appear to be projectile related.

**Muffer Nl** · November 04, 2009, 02:15 PM

Maybe animation related? They use difrent sets of animations for firing. The Arquebusiers fire like normal archers but the Musketeers fire in revolving ranks.

**Vaz** · November 04, 2009, 02:23 PM

Do they have "affected_by_rain" in the descr_projectile? If so, that's what causes it.

**Valiant Champion** · November 04, 2009, 05:37 PM

Here were some battle results I got putting up Aventuros with secondary animation versus Urukhai with only primary pikes

Toggled them once on spearwall and thats all she wrote. Thats 76 versus 109 too.

EDU is set up just like this (aside from the lack of spaces when posting it) with file and rank spacing modification.

type Aventuros
dictionary Aventuros ; Aventuros
category infantry
class spearmen
voice_type Heavy
banner faction main_spear
banner holy crusade
soldier Aventuros, 60, 0, 4
attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, very_hardy, can_withdraw
formation 0.8, 1.8, 2.4, 2.4, 4, square, phalanx
stat_health 1, 0
stat_pri 13, 6, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, piercing, spear, 25, 1
;stat_pri_ex 0, 0, 0
stat_pri_attr spear, long_pike, spear_bonus_12
stat_sec 10, 3, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, piercing, sword, 25, 1
;stat_sec_ex 0, 0, 0
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 3, 8, 0, metal
;stat_armour_ex 3, 5, 6, 0, 8, 0, 0, metal
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 2
stat_ground 1, 0, 2, -2
stat_mental 11, impetuous, highly_trained
stat_charge_dist 20
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 730, 185, 85, 200, 730, 4, 210
armour_ug_levels 2, 3, 4
armour_ug_models Aventuros, Aventuros_ug1, Aventuros_ug2
ownership portugal
era 2 portugal
;unit_info 13, 0, 11
recruit_priority_offset 40

I noticed that my arquebusiers are also firing by rank. I feel pretty strongly it has got to do something with the weapon model itself. Which would be identical across the board for all musketeers I think. I know that some models and animations are hijacked and modified or else simply discarded to make room for additional stuff that normally wouldnt make it into the game due to hard code limits.

Or it could simply be something in the primary weapons attribute or the unit attributes I havent spotted yet. Although they look pretty close to arquebusiers weapon and unit attributes except for the bullet. Which as I stated before I was able to use musket_bullet with mercenary arquebusiers without a crash.

These portuguese arquebusiers will work

type Portuguese Arquebusiers
dictionary Portuguese_Arquebusiers ; Portuguese Arquebusiers
category infantry
class missile
voice_type Light
banner faction main_missile
banner holy crusade
soldier Portuguese_Arquebusiers, 48, 0, 1
attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, very_hardy, can_withdraw, gunpowder_unit, fire_by_rank, start_not_skirmishing, gunmen
formation 1.2, 1.2, 2.4, 2.4, 3, square
stat_health 1, 0
stat_pri 16, 3, arquebus_bullet, 120, 15, missile, missile_gunpowder, piercing, none, musket_shot_set, 25, 1
;stat_pri_ex 0, 0, 0
stat_pri_attr ap
stat_sec 9, 3, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, piercing, sword, 25, 1
;stat_sec_ex 0, 0, 0
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 3, 4, 0, metal
;stat_armour_ex 3, 5, 0, 0, 4, 0, 0, metal
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 2
stat_ground 1, 0, 2, -2
stat_mental 9, low, trained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 730, 150, 60, 140, 730, 4, 210
armour_ug_levels 2, 3
armour_ug_models Portuguese_Arquebusiers, Portuguese_Arquebusiers_ug1
ownership portugal
era 2 portugal
;unit_info 9, 16, 7
recruit_priority_offset 10

These musketeers will not work

type Musketeers
dictionary Musketeers ; Musketeers
category infantry
class missile
voice_type Light
banner faction main_missile
banner holy crusade
soldier Musketeers, 48, 0, 0.8
attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, can_withdraw, gunpowder_unit, fire_by_rank, start_not_skirmishing, gunmen
formation 1.2, 1.2, 2.4, 2.4, 3, square
stat_health 1, 0
stat_pri 14, 1, musket_bullet, 180, 15, missile, missile_gunpowder, piercing, none, musket_shot_set, 25, 1
;stat_pri_ex 0, 0, 20
stat_pri_attr ap
stat_sec 3, 1, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, piercing, sword, 25, 1
;stat_sec_ex 0, 0, 0
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 0, 2, 0, flesh
;stat_armour_ex 0, 3, 0, 0, 1, 0, 0, flesh
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 4
stat_ground 1, -2, 3, 4
stat_mental 3, normal, trained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 550, 150, 45, 105, 550, 4, 160
armour_ug_levels 0, 2
armour_ug_models Musketeers, Musketeers_ug1
ownership portugal
era 2 portugal
;unit_info 5, 16, 2
recruit_priority_offset 30

Game will not crash until battle deployment.

**Muffer Nl** · November 05, 2009, 01:53 AM

Yes that is why I said that you are missing the animations they need for firing in revolving ranks. Could you post the DB file entry's?
MAybe try to chance almost everything to the stat of the Arquebusiers. Things like atributes and stats.

**Vaz** · November 05, 2009, 04:58 AM

Can you post the decsr_projectile while you're at it for the musket_bullet?

**Valiant Champion** · November 06, 2009, 06:55 PM

What changes do I need to make to bring portugal into the game?

Probably keep the building tree and unit tree very simple to start with.

**Valiant Champion** · November 07, 2009, 08:29 AM

I brought these mercenary pikemen (76 men) over from a personal mod of mine. They have the spacing mod. It took very little micromanagment as you can see to beat a 101 orc unit of Urukhai pikemen. As you can see they have a secondary weapon. Very simliar EDU stats to the Aventuros. Enjoy!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9E2gBRc5WPQ

Gotta love the pike animation fix that was included in the third age mod where they lower their pikes horizontal when approaching the enemy instead of angled. Smooth transition between upright and leveled as well.

I am doing mercenaries so I can bring in some similiar units to Portugal and be able to do simple modding such as adding them to merc pool, creat_unit spawns, Or place them in stacks of my choosing in any faction in descr_strat file.

On the posting of the files you guys asked for, I will hook my gaming machine back up sometime to copy and paste. I usually only use my junk computer on the internet and keep my gaming machine off.

**Vaz** · November 07, 2009, 08:48 AM

You might want to have a look at the Stainless Steel (and perhaps) RR+RC mod for your unit stats, as I believe TATW is balanced to RR/RC stats, rather than vanilla. That could be why 70 Pikemen wipe the floor with 100 Uruks.

**Valiant Champion** · November 07, 2009, 09:43 AM

Originally Posted by Vaz

You might want to have a look at the Stainless Steel (and perhaps) RR+RC mod for your unit stats, as I believe TATW is balanced to RR/RC stats, rather than vanilla. That could be why 70 Pikemen wipe the floor with 100 Uruks.

Well the reason why Uruks were toned down was because of their "uber" abilities because they don't switch to swords. Supposedly this gives them a substantial advantage. Which it actually does against close in units even if they came from medieval 2 stats.

which the unit stats are not based on medieval 2 vanilla. they are based on Retrofit/Kingdoms balancing. Also they are using the Kingdoms animations that highly downgraded pike performance compared to vanilla total war.

**Point Blank** · November 23, 2009, 05:44 PM

Yep RR/RC for SS is totally balanced with TATW, units can be used interchangably and will be balanced for both mods. Combat system is standardized for both mods 100%.

**Valiant Champion** · November 20, 2009, 12:12 PM

Its the musketeer animation that is messed up. All musketeer models work with arquebusiers animation.

I have been create_uniting a lot of renassaince era units into the campaign and it has been a bit of fun. Mostly replacing gifts of units for completing missions with pike and musket units. It has been a bit of fun.

**Valiant Champion** · November 22, 2009, 12:02 PM

I have managed to get arquebusiers with musketeer models and renamed musketeers in export_units text.

Reiters

Mounted Crossbowmen

Swiss Armored Pikemen using Aventuros for basic model and Noble Pikemen ug1 for upgrade model

Swiss Halberdiers using Obushaer models

Basilisk

Mercenary Rocket Launcher

Mercenary Pavise Crossbowmen

Forlorn Hope

swiss pikemen

landsncheckt pikemen

and a few other un notables so far.

All as mercenary units. some using mercenary textures while other using various faction textures.

Was able to do this without any serious modification requiring texture converters etc etc.

**Valiant Champion** · November 24, 2009, 11:09 AM

Gothic Knights and dismounted Gothic Knights as mercenaries. Just using existing textures mostly with merc headings in the model db.

Came across something odd though. I tried to add venetian heavy infantry models to Eriador town militia. The models db was okay but got a crash on start up. After some examination it appears that eriador town militia uses an animation that the venetian heavy infantry cannot use although it appears to be identical to their animation. My goal there was to use vanilla models to make the town militia more uber looking with a couple of extra armor upgrades.

**Valiant Champion** · December 14, 2009, 10:35 AM

I have brought in the serpentine and monster ribault. However I cant do the Monster bombard as the model was hijacked for the isengard mine engine model. Or else it was a contender for it as the culverin engine model was also hijacked for the Isengard engine model as well.

Yep RR/RC for SS is totally balanced with TATW, units can be used interchangably and will be balanced for both mods. Combat system is standardized for both mods 100%.

I would almost agree with that except that certian units like Rebel bodyguards have vanilla stats. Even with 2 hitpoints. Kingdoms and thus retrofit balancing is the best in my opinion. Real combat is simply not real when pikemen can kill only 6 inches from their bodies and they can use their pikes on castle walls. Also the pikemen in the game have unusually low stats compared to other units. This is done to make up for their all pike animation but is simply not realistic at all.

If you read up on historical literature you will find that the Pike was simply not the kill all weapon its lifted up to be. The weapon that brought the Swiss to their prominence was the halberd and not the pike. The Swiss only adopted the pike after they observed the Bernese fend off Austrian mercenary cavalry with them in a hedghog formation.

A typical Swiss Cantonel would have an outer ring of pikemen while the interior was composed of halberdiers. They adopted them to more effectively stop cavalry. They were also used in the anti-infantry mode but were supported by halberdiers. The pike wall almost always eventually broke down thus the need for halberdiers and swords. If you observe many rennaisance depictions you will also see pikemen bracing with the pike held in the offhand while the sword hand would be ready to draw their sword out of its scabbard for when the enemy made it past his pike.

Swiss mercenaries used the pike because most nations needed skilled pikemen. They didnt need halberdiers as they usually had plenty of close combat infantry and the use of the pike effectively required extensive drilling and expertise.

Why do I bring this up? Because real combat or stainless steel is simply not real.

**Point Blank** · December 14, 2009, 12:05 PM

I think its pretty well established that leaving pikemen equipped with secondary weapons makes them mostly disfunctional in this game. Any mod that focusses on combat of that era eg FKoC removes them. As soon as an enemy makes an attack against a vanilla pikeman, even if he is distant from the pikeman, he will immediately drop his pike because there are no defensive pike animations. You can play with spacing as much as you like but they are still just plain broken in vanilla.

Removing the secondary weapon is certainly not ideal, but in terms of depicting the overall effectiveness of pike units, its a compromise that is better than leaving them in. And we can compensate to a large degree by working with stats and the pike animation set.

I wish there was a way to make pikemen use their swords sensibly, it would be good.

**Valiant Champion** · December 14, 2009, 08:33 PM

Originally Posted by Point Blank

I think its pretty well established that leaving pikemen equipped with secondary weapons makes them mostly disfunctional in this game. Any mod that focusses on combat of that era eg FKoC removes them. As soon as an enemy makes an attack against a vanilla pikeman, even if he is distant from the pikeman, he will immediately drop his pike because there are no defensive pike animations. You can play with spacing as much as you like but they are still just plain broken in vanilla.

Removing the secondary weapon is certainly not ideal, but in terms of depicting the overall effectiveness of pike units, its a compromise that is better than leaving them in. And we can compensate to a large degree by working with stats and the pike animation set.

I wish there was a way to make pikemen use their swords sensibly, it would be good.

CA reduced the effectiveness of pike units in both 1.2 and later in Kingdoms. Apparently some people complained (some in the MP community) that pikes were overpowered. If a unit is broken why would you weaken it?