Does CA still has the excuse of not giving us historically accurate units for R2TW?

[ray243]

Given the fact that TONS of necessary historical research has already been done by many modding teams for RTW, giving CA a huge insight into how the units from various barbarian culture would look like, to how do you differentiate the hoplite armies of the various Greek states and successor states, do you think CA has an excuse of giving fans unhistorical units or depict the units in the wrong manner?

CA don't even need to spend money in trying to hire people to do history research for R2TW!

[General Nuisance esq]

The mods for RTW may actually cause a problem for CA should they do a RTW2, through complaints of copyright etc
Personally I would not be that bothered about being too historically precise it is a GAME after all not a thesis

[ssmarine]

I wouldnt hold my breath about historically accurate units in any of CAs games.
Their excuse would be that they invented the total war series and its never had historical units.

Hopefully, they make the game as moddable as the older total wars so the community can do it themselves.

[G-Megas-Doux]

I think that their excuse would be that it would require too much research time to verify the findings of the modders community and that it is not relevant to the playability of the game.

[ray243]

I think that their excuse would be that it would require too much research time to verify the findings of the modders community and that it is not relevant to the playability of the game.

Except that they have no idea how much they have to gain by making the units more unique.

[Teutonic Joe]

actually their excuse will be what everyone uses. Eye candy. but seriously...who doesn't want a incendiary pig unit on a new engine

also i noticed that they do tailor more to stereotypes in order to bring about easy recognition. Like pharaoh era Egyptians instead of Ptolemies, typical barbarian look units, etc etc

[G-Megas-Doux]

I dont think that they think in a way where they will realise this. I think they should spend the time doing it but RTW2 will be done just like MIITW was, as a quick moneymaking spin off.

[Majormichael]

Given the fact that TONS of necessary historical research has already been done by many modding teams for RTW, giving CA a huge insight into how the units from various barbarian culture would look like, to how do you differentiate the hoplite armies of the various Greek states and successor states, do you think CA has an excuse of giving fans unhistorical units or depict the units in the wrong manner?

CA don't even need to spend money in trying to hire people to do history research for R2TW!

No I don't think CA has an excuse for creating fantasy units because many people like me prefer historical accuracy than fantasy. It's like making these games for little kids. For instance the Yubtseb elephant. It's the same as in having gunpowder units in RTW. And anyways, since they gathered so many historians, they could use their knowledge and create real units. If not, then why have them? Also, if the games were to be historical, not only would it be fun, but you would slowly start learning about the faction in the certain time period.
That's why we can thank modders for spending their time to create mods that make the game more historical.

Cheers to all modders!

[Teutonic Joe]

No I don't think CA has an excuse for creating fantasy units because many people like me prefer historical accuracy than fantasy. It's like making these games for little kids. For instance the Yubtseb elephant. It's the same as in having gunpowder units in RTW. And anyways, since they gathered so many historians, they could use their knowledge and create real units. If not, then why have them? Also, if the games were to be historical, not only would it be fun, but you would slowly start learning about the faction in the certain time period.
That's why we can thank modders for spending their time to create mods that make the game more historical.

Cheers to all modders!

thing is by "many" you cannot be referring to a MASSIVE chunk of their playerbase...at best you are referring to many on TWC (which isnt the entire playerbase)

Thing is, i highly doubt they will ever go fully historical. Especially if they get their arses in gear and actually create a TW game that isnt buggy on release and will be so amazingly good that divine light will shine from my monitor. And if they do succeed in making the messianic TW game to make up for the crappy ETW, then i highly doubt the TWC forumites will be flaming, creating petitions, and other over the lack of historical units....

[Fireright]

CA's only obligation is to provide a quality bug-free history-based game which is enjoyable to play for the majority of consumers..the players. It is a game.

They are under no obligation to provide the definitive educational research tool.

I'm guessing that the majority of players are content if the games units broadly reflect the history of the game period, and are unconcerned with 100% historical accuracy. Obvious gaffs such as gunpowder units, coal-powered steel warships or aircraft are clearly no-nos and would ruin it for consumers expecting a Rome-based game, however the precise length of a certain units spear and shield size is of zero interest to many. Units that never existed though shouldnt be in the game.

The modding community easily cater to the players seeking higher level accuracy and the exact specifics of every unit. A couple of 'heavyweight' mods spring to mind, but how many people actually play them and would they sell commercially? Probably not

[magpie]

CA, Could produce accurate historical units, given they already exsist, As for joe public not caring, well they have not been given the choice really in the past, So what they don't know does not bother them! ignorance is bliss, To coin a phrase. Also its probably quicker to produce batches of lookalikes for different factions. It would be nice though to get the real thing

[ray243]

CA's only obligation is to provide a quality bug-free history-based game which is enjoyable to play for the majority of consumers..the players. It is a game.

They are under no obligation to provide the definitive educational research tool.

I'm guessing that the majority of players are content if the games units broadly reflect the history of the game period, and are unconcerned with 100% historical accuracy. Obvious gaffs such as gunpowder units, coal-powered steel warships or aircraft are clearly no-nos and would ruin it for consumers expecting a Rome-based game, however the precise length of a certain units spear and shield size is of zero interest to many. Units that never existed though shouldnt be in the game.

The modding community easily cater to the players seeking higher level accuracy and the exact specifics of every unit. A couple of 'heavyweight' mods spring to mind, but how many people actually play them and would they sell commercially? Probably not

The argument I am putting forward is the fact having trying to be more historical like what the RTR, EB and RS 2 team is doing makes the game feels more interesting to play with all the range of units the game can offer, even if the person is an average joe.

The wider range of choice a player has ( even if he is someone who has no idea what Roman history is all about, and is just a casual player ) , the more interesting the game can be for him.

Mods don't get noticed by people because mods don't have the same level of publicity a game made by a game company has. The question that needs to be answered by the opposition is " will causal fans be turned off if the game has more historically accurate units? " .


Thanks to CA for their work in RTW, now CA has a extremely large archive of information regarding what sort of units can be depicted in R2TW without having to spend a single cent. This is a huge advantage CA has when they decides to make R2TW, an advantage that wasn't available when they are making RTW.

[G-Megas-Doux]

Even with such information available to them, the likeley hood is that they would not use the technology or troop type. They would focus on interface and possibly an overhall of the Roman Faction, maybe a second campaign start and that would be it. They dont seem to be focused on the bits you want them to change which is a shame.

[Deux]

Well, according to EmpireOnline the totalwar series has sold over 4.5m copies. Hardly represented by 70k members on here.
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I understand what you are saying Ray but did they ever have an excuse for not making it historically accurate? Therefore it is their choice to blend the historical with fabricated elements. It is a videogame so elements are always going to be fabricated either before the first end turn or definately after it. The most I can hope for is historic starting positions, family members and an authentic unit roster, anything else is fine by me. Carpe Diem, the world is about to be moulded by the players' guiding hand, Pontus ruling the world? What then is the point of a completely realistic game which took many many hours to research. They would not under any circumstances trust a forum for their research. About as much credibilty as Wikipedia.

[ray243]

Well, according to EmpireOnline the totalwar series has sold over 4.5m copies. Hardly represented by 70k members on here.
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I understand what you are saying Ray but did they ever have an excuse for not making it historically accurate? Therefore it is their choice to blend the historical with fabricated elements. It is a videogame so elements are always going to be fabricated either before the first end turn or definately after it. The most I can hope for is historic starting positions, family members and an authentic unit roster, anything else is fine by me. Carpe Diem, the world is about to be moulded by the players' guiding hand, Pontus ruling the world? What then is the point of a completely realistic game which took many many hours to research. They would not under any circumstances trust a forum for their research. About as much credibilty as Wikipedia.

I agree that using a forum for research is not a good idea. However, since we are talking about the fact that CA doesn't need to be historically accurate when making their games to such a huge extend, and the additonal fact that their units in RTW are still MORE historically inaccuarte than mods like EB, RTR and even RS 2 for instance.

It seems weird that on one hand you are saying the game should not be too historically accurate, yet on the other hand, you are saying that CA shouldn't rely on the forums because they might not be credible enough.

I am saying making the units look more historically accurate and diverse will make the game extremly fun for many causal players. Take a look at many other RTS games, where we see a huge diversity of units to choose from.

How do you make people willingly to go back and start a new campaign with a new faction? Make the faction more unique and different from each other. Won't it be more fun to all the casual players when you have tons of different units if you are playing as gaul? Won't it be more fun to play as the Germans when the Germanic units looks quite different from the Celtic units?

Having a wider range in units is one of the main thing that can seperate CA's total war games from many other RTS games that depicts the Romans and her enemies. Having a wider range of units is a very good selling point for CA!

Even if the people on TWC is a small minority, there is no reason why those caual fans would be turned off if the units looks more diverse.

[Deux]

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I agree that using a forum for research is not a good idea. However, since we are talking about the fact that CA doesn't need to be historically accurate when making their games to such a huge extend, and the additonal fact that their units in RTW are still MORE historically inaccuarte than mods like EB, RTR and even RS 2 for instance.

It seems weird that on one hand you are saying the game should not be too historically accurate, yet on the other hand, you are saying that CA shouldn't rely on the forums because they might not be credible enough.

I am saying making the units look more historically accurate and diverse will make the game extremly fun for many causal players. Take a look at many other RTS games, where we see a huge diversity of units to choose from.

How do you make people willingly to go back and start a new campaign with a new faction? Make the faction more unique and different from each other. Won't it be more fun to all the casual players when you have tons of different units if you are playing as gaul? Won't it be more fun to play as the Germans when the Germanic units looks quite different from the Celtic units?

Having a wider range in units is one of the main thing that can seperate CA's total war games from many other RTS games that depicts the Romans and her enemies. Having a wider range of units is a very good selling point for CA!

Even if the people on TWC is a small minority, there is no reason why those caual fans would be turned off if the units looks more diverse.

Unit rosters which I did agree with in my previous post should be considered very close to the top of the pile. Diversity is definately sought after by all totalwar fans and yes of course it will make people want to play the game again and again.

What I am saying though is that they shouldn't spend years and years going into far too much detail to satisfy the hardcore fans. As I said earlier, the most I can hope for is historic starting positions, family members and an authentic unit roster. Anything else is overkill and really not needed in a game. Due to the historic nature of the game and indeed the whole series though some historical consistency is needed.

[ray243]

Unit rosters which I did agree with in my previous post should be considered very close to the top of the pile. Diversity is definately sought after by all totalwar fans and yes of course it will make people want to play the game again and again.

What I am saying though is that they shouldn't spend years and years going into far too much detail to satisfy the hardcore fans. As I said earlier, the most I can hope for is historic starting positions, family members and an authentic unit roster. Anything else is overkill and really not needed in a game. Due to the historic nature of the game and indeed the whole series though some historical consistency is needed.

I'm not denying that gameplay in other areas is important. However, I think you are missing my point.

I'm saying that during the development process of RTW, CA have a harder time trying to find good and easily accessable sources that tells them what sort of units to create for the game. This is mainly due to a much smaller Total war community, and the lack of easily accessable books and sources.

Now, with a flourishing community and easily accessable sources , they do not need to spend that much time on research. If they just copied the design of units from various mods for RTW, and checking out the unit balance in those mods, they can actually have more time to work on other aspect of the game.

As a whole, this could have the potential of cutting down the development time.

[Fireright]

Unit-wise, diversity, uniqueness, and plenty of playable factions(no unlocking garbage!!) in a regular tw sandbox campaign game gets my vote. The consumer aka player feels they've got value for money with several well-rounded factions available, hence mucho replayability.

Gameplay-wise, indeed its silly and unrealistic that Pontus or Armenia can rise up and conquer the known world, and thats part of the fun, therefore in that context theres no real need for 100% historical accuracy or realism. (especially when it can take several years to sail over the watery stuff and there are twenty mile high guys on the campaign map). Tis merely a game.

Eyebrows will be raised should a player discover that Rome is defended by SAM missile sites, laser tanks and sonic blast death troopers, other than that sort of nonsense, I figure most people arent bothered by 100% realism or accuracy and see a tw game for what it is.

CAs time would be better spent on releasing bug-free games and patching up older games rather than researching the maximum thickness of an obscure units' javelin.

[|Sith| Max]

as long as it has a lobby, decent online connectability (because if 64 people can simultaneously conduct modern warfare on BF2, a game thats quite old, so can rtw with 4 or 6.), the same factions, the same units and the same controls, with a graphic overhaul, im in. i dont ask for much, just the ability to kick the out of everyone online.

[Teutonic Joe]

yes but the Seleucids, Ptolemies, Macedonians, Pontus, etc would have very similar units and thus break up diversity...hell it will be the barbarian faction unit complaint all over again.