Government and morality

[Enemy of the State]

When I steal from somebody, it's called theft. When a government does it, they call it taxation.
When I kill someone, it's called murder. When a government does it, they call it war.
When I force someone to work for me, it's called slavery. When a government does it, they call it conscription.

If I did those things, I would be viewed as a bad person. Governments do all of the above, and get away with it. Why is this so? Why does government have a different moral code? And why do we accept it?

[Koelkastmagneet]

If I did those things, I would be viewed as a bad person. Governments do all of the above, and get away with it. Why is this so? Why does government have a different moral code? And why do we accept it?

Governments are generally hated after being in power for a prolonged period of time.

A government is a necessary evil.

[Celsius]

And most governments collapse after 300 years or so and are replaced with a new. So at some point in time, that tiny spot of Anarchy makes everyone equal.

[Del Valle]

When I steal from somebody, it's called theft. When a government does it, they call it taxation.
When I kill someone, it's called murder. When a government does it, they call it war.
When I force someone to work for me, it's called slavery. When a government does it, they call it conscription.

If I did those things, I would be viewed as a bad person. Governments do all of the above, and get away with it. Why is this so? Why does government have a different moral code? And why do we accept it?

Taxation is needed to keep society running smoothly. Where would be without a strong army or a police force?
War is needed to protect ourselves and our interests. What would happen if there is no organized reponse to an invasion?
Conscription is needed for when there is a national emergency that requires the effort of all society to fend off.

[Enemy of the State]

The government doesn't have a different moral code if it is a legitimate government with a social contract that is for the good of the people.

Unless there is unanimous consent, there is no such thing as legitimate government. There is no way to opt out for the ones that do not accept.

Taxation is needed to keep society running smoothly. Where would be without a strong army or a police force?
War is needed to protect ourselves and our interests. What would happen if there is no organized reponse to an invasion?
Conscription is needed for when there is a national emergency that requires the effort of all society to fend off.

Then our common morality is flawed and needs to be changed. Why do we believe theft, murder and slavery are wrong yet still practice all of it?

Hmm I'm tempted to merge this with the thread in the Philosophy section (which I haven't forgotten about btw)

Oh I forgot about that. Feel free to merge it, I don't mind.

[Morkonan]

Unless there is unanimous consent, there is no such thing as legitimate government. There is no way to opt out for the ones that do not accept.

Yes, there is a way to "Opt Out." Change the Law.

Then our common morality is flawed and needs to be changed. Why do we believe theft, murder and slavery are wrong yet still practice all of it?

Some people may practice theft, murder and slavery. But, I don't see how you can say the Government practices those things. (I MIGHT agree that capital punishment is "murder" but, only in the "moral" sense.)

Oh I forgot about that. Feel free to merge it, I don't mind.

/agree Multiple threads could get too confusing/contradictory.

[Justice and Mercy]

Yes, there is a way to "Opt Out." Change the Law.

The sheep may offer whatever alternatives for dinner he likes, chances are he's still on the menu.

[Dr. Croccer]

The sheep may offer whatever alternatives for dinner he likes, chances are he's still on the menu.

Of course, there's no such a thing as ''democracy'' in the modern world, but an evil government conspiracy to keep some people under. Nor has there ever been a case of oppressed (actually oppressed ones, not rich people who have to pay a bit more taxes) groups gaining rights through democracy, popular action and law change....

*cough*blacksjewsproletariatasiansgypsies*cough*

[Morkonan]

The sheep may offer whatever alternatives for dinner he likes, chances are he's still on the menu.

An excellent comment. I'm going to remember that. I may not agree with it but, it's an awesome comment just the same.

[Morkonan]

When I steal from somebody, it's called theft. When a government does it, they call it taxation.

A legitimate government does not confiscate or steal from the governed. They are empowered to tax by the governed.

When I kill someone, it's called murder. When a government does it, they call it war.

War is war. Murder can occur in war, that's easy to see. But, the two are not the same.

When I force someone to work for me, it's called slavery. When a government does it, they call it conscription.

A legitimate government is empowered by the governed. If they give the government the power to Conscript then the power ultimately is derived from the people, not the government.

If I did those things, I would be viewed as a bad person. Governments do all of the above, and get away with it. Why is this so? Why does government have a different moral code? And why do we accept it?

The government doesn't have a different moral code if it is a legitimate government with a social contract that is for the good of the people.

[Denny Crane!]

Hmm I'm tempted to merge this with the thread in the Philosophy section (which I haven't forgotten about btw)

Any objections to that, philosophy - political philosophy....same thing just a shame to have to threads since I'll want involved in both, twice as much work and I'm lazy.

[Rt. Hon. Gentleman]

When I steal from somebody, it's called theft. When a government does it, they call it taxation.
When I kill someone, it's called murder. When a government does it, they call it war.
When I force someone to work for me, it's called slavery. When a government does it, they call it conscription.

If I did those things, I would be viewed as a bad person. Governments do all of the above, and get away with it. Why is this so? Why does government have a different moral code? And why do we accept it?

Meh. As has already been said, the electorate empower the Government.

As I have said previously in the US healthcare thread, if the Government did not take my money, I would give it to them. Simple-as.

[jankren]

So you prefer anarchy or what?

[TheTrainee]

How do you suggest a community pays for things that generally benefit the entire community, eg a road or such? I'm sure the voluntary donation wouldn't work... even more freeriders.

[Dr. Croccer]

When I steal from somebody, it's called theft. When a government does it, they call it taxation.

If you don't pay taxes, you leech off society and the government. Taxation isn't ''theft'', it's paying for necessities which society and government makes available. Nobody's forcing you to pay taxes, but if you don't pay them, don't expect to have a good job or make use of running water, electricity, infrastucture, healthcare, welfare and other privileges which society and the government makes available.

When I kill someone, it's called murder. When a government does it, they call it war.

Because war, exploitation, slavery or atrocities are or were non-existant in countries without a stable government or by corporations. Right.

When I force someone to work for me, it's called slavery. When a government does it, they call it conscription.

Conscription is forcing someone to fight for you. And, of course, there is and was no form of forced labour or poor treatment towards workers in territories ruled by commercial enterprises or without an effective government. Sure.

If I did those things, I would be viewed as a bad person. Governments do all of the above, and get away with it. Why is this so?

Because governments are democratically elected, ensure our civil rights and other rights and privileges and are considerably better than anarchy, in which we still pay taxes and have to fight, but without rights or privileges.

Why does government have a different moral code?

It doesn't. Taxes and war are eternal, regardless of whether a goverment or a private company does it. They're an accepted part of human civilisation.

And why do we accept it?

Because we aren't idiots. It's stupid to pretend that governments are the source of evil and when they're gone, we'll all live in Candyland or whatever. If a democratic government is absent or powerless, you'll simply have another entity taking over, and being considerably less friendly to the population. Take a look at Somalia. It's official government is almost entirely powerless, most of the country is ruled by tribes, communes, juntas or other administrative entities, which have all the negative aspects of a government, and none of it's positive ones. Vast swathes of Africa were conceded to commercial enterprises in the turn of the 20th century, such as the British South Africa Company, which had exclusive rights to exploit resources. These companies acted like governments in their own right, and had the right to levy taxes, which in Africa often meant payment in labour, instead of capital and had their own personal armies and police forces. This meant that many Africans were essentially slaves, on pain of torture and death, this was especially the case in the Congo Free State. The situation in that territory was so bad that the Belgian government was forced to take over the territory in 1908 due to international pressure, the territory had been King Leopold's personal territory, parts of which he leased out to virtually every company with a decent price, hence the name, Congo Free State.

As the Unknown Entity stated, a government is a necessary evil. And I add, a governmentless state is a much worse, unnecessary evil.

Unless there is unanimous consent, there is no such thing as legitimate government.

We've got a legitimate government, considering that it's been molded into the present form over the course of centuries by force or/and democracy. A handful of people who whine about taxes and choke back big sobs of sadness isn't going to change that.

[Kjertesvein]

When I steal from somebody, it's called theft. When a government does it, they call it taxation.
When I kill someone, it's called murder. When a government does it, they call it war.
When I force someone to work for me, it's called slavery. When a government does it, they call it conscription.

If I did those things, I would be viewed as a bad person. Governments do all of the above, and get away with it. Why is this so? Why does government have a different moral code? And why do we accept it?

They are elected, something you are not.

Second, you must realise that not every person got the same ideology and they will never ever let it happend. Most people belive that the government has some place in society, which do have "War drafts", care for the people born with some disabilitys, etc.

You can not cap everyone under your own shoe, because this is a solid rock which has excisted since before 1250 years (atleast in my own country).

However there is a very good third sollution Mr. Tim, a pilot project. JUST like the Danish Freetown Christiania, but instead about liberitarian ideals would be something worth following on. Have your own laws and

[★Bandiera Rossa☭]

Every form of labor in modern society is slavery, Capitalism is slavery, if a person is forced to work or die is that not slavery?

[Dr. Croccer]

''This morning I was awoken by my alarm clock powered by electricity generated by the public power monopoly regulated by the US Department of Energy.
I then took a shower in the clean water provided by the municipal water utility.
After that, I turned on the TV to one of the FCC regulated channels to see what the National Weather Service of the National Oceanographic and Atmospheric Administration determined the weather was going to be like using satellites designed, built, and launched by the National Aeronautics and Space Administration. I watched this while eating my breakfast of US Department of Agriculture inspected food and taking the drugs which have been determined as safe by the Food and Drug Administration.
At the appropriate time as regulated by the US Congress and kept accurate by the National Institute of Standards and Technology and the US Naval Observatory, I get into my National Highway Traffic Safety Administration approved automobile and set out to work on the roads built by the local, state, and federal Departments of Transportation, possibly stopping to purchase additional fuel of a quality level determined by the Environmental Protection Agency, using legal tender issued by the Federal Reserve Bank. On the way out the door I deposit any mail I have to be sent out via the US Postal Service and drop the kids off at the public school.
Then, after spending another day not being maimed or killed at work thanks to the workplace regulations imposed by the Department of Labor and the Occupational Safety and Health Administration, I drive back to my house which has not burned down in my absence because of the state and local building codes and the fire marshal's inspection, and which has not been plundered of all its valuables thanks to the local police department.
I then log onto the Internet which was developed by the Defense Advanced Research Projects Administration and post on freerepublic and fox news forums about how SOCIALISM in medicine is BAD because the government can't do anything right. ''

/thread

[Ahlerich]

When I steal from somebody, it's called theft. When a government does it, they call it taxation.

rubbish. taxation cant be compared with theft as you get something back for the money. it is a trade more then theft.

well i just noticed the käsekopp wrote the same much more witty then i did.

[Enemy of the State]

I'll reply a bit later, no time. I'll just answer the last post quickly.

rubbish. taxation cant be compared with theft as you get something back for the money. it is a trade more then theft.

A trade implies that it's voluntary. You may very well agree to give your money, but it hardly matters since the state does not care if you accept it or not, it takes it anyway. If it was purely voluntary in nature, it would be trade.

''This morning I was awoken by my alarm clock powered by electricity generated by the public power monopoly regulated by the US Department of Energy.
I then took a shower in the clean water provided by the municipal water utility.
After that, I turned on the TV to one of the FCC regulated channels to see what the National Weather Service of the National Oceanographic and Atmospheric Administration determined the weather was going to be like using satellites designed, built, and launched by the National Aeronautics and Space Administration. I watched this while eating my breakfast of US Department of Agriculture inspected food and taking the drugs which have been determined as safe by the Food and Drug Administration.
At the appropriate time as regulated by the US Congress and kept accurate by the National Institute of Standards and Technology and the US Naval Observatory, I get into my National Highway Traffic Safety Administration approved automobile and set out to work on the roads built by the local, state, and federal Departments of Transportation, possibly stopping to purchase additional fuel of a quality level determined by the Environmental Protection Agency, using legal tender issued by the Federal Reserve Bank. On the way out the door I deposit any mail I have to be sent out via the US Postal Service and drop the kids off at the public school.
Then, after spending another day not being maimed or killed at work thanks to the workplace regulations imposed by the Department of Labor and the Occupational Safety and Health Administration, I drive back to my house which has not burned down in my absence because of the state and local building codes and the fire marshal's inspection, and which has not been plundered of all its valuables thanks to the local police department.
I then log onto the Internet which was developed by the Defense Advanced Research Projects Administration and post on freerepublic and fox news forums about how SOCIALISM in medicine is BAD because the government can't do anything right. ''

All of which are coercive monopolies. Oh how thankful I should be to the US Postal Service, even though Lysander Spooner founded the American Letter Mail Company which offered far cheaper and better quality service, but was forced out of business by the government because it broke the monopoly! I should be grateful for poor quality service because that is the only choice the state allows me?