Would any Greek Orthodox folk...

[Playfishpaste]

Mind sharing how literalist your interpretation of the bible is? From what I've looked into it seems pretty moderate with it, almost catholic, but I'm not sure if this only holds for greek and eastern orthodoxy.

[hellas1]

Howdy,

I was brought up Greek Orthodox, I am Greek BTW, and have studied Church History so,

In Greek Orthodoxy we view the bible as God's word.
Also the Lord Jesus is the Theopany or God manefestation, on Earth and in the
hearts of his people, Greek or not!

The bible is considered literal and the Septuagint is the "Old Testament" being used.
That is not to say that allegory and symbolism don't exist, They do.

Also:
-Priests marry.
-Female deacons are ordained.
-Episkopi or "overseers" exist.
-The "Eucharist" is not the literal blood & body of Christ like it is in Roman Catholicism and it does NOT save you. The death of Jesus Christ and a person confessing with his mouth that "Jesus Christ is Lord" and believing that in their hearts saves as person.
-There is No Pope. The Pope is considered a bishop of Rome as is the bishop of Constantinople, bishop of Antioch, etc.
-Icons are used to bring the believers' mind to God via remembering what a specific "saint" did in his or her life. Of course, Icons or pictures of Christ, Pentecost, etc. exist also. Icons do NOT save a person, Jesus does.

Does this help?

No problems man!
hellas1

[Prodigal]

Howdy,

I was brought up Greek Orthodox, I am Greek BTW, and have studied Church History so,

In Greek Orthodoxy we view the bible as God's word.
Also the Lord Jesus is the Theopany or God manefestation, on Earth and in the
hearts of his people, Greek or not!

The bible is considered literal and the Septuagint is the "Old Testament" being used.
That is not to say that allegory and symbolism don't exist, They do.

Also:
-Priests marry.
-Female deacons are ordained.
-Episkopi or "overseers" exist.
-The "Eucharist" is not the literal blood & body of Christ like it is in Roman Catholicism and it does NOT save you. The death of Jesus Christ and a person confessing with his mouth that "Jesus Christ is Lord" and believing that in their hearts saves as person.
-There is No Pope. The Pope is considered a bishop of Rome as is the bishop of Constantinople, bishop of Antioch, etc.
-Icons are used to bring the believers' mind to God via remembering what a specific "saint" did in his or her life. Of course, Icons or pictures of Christ, Pentecost, etc. exist also. Icons do NOT save a person, Jesus does.

Does this help?

No problems man!
hellas1

Basically this, except I don't know of any female deacons...

[The Noble Lord]

-Priests marry.-Female deacons are ordained.

I know that priests can marry but where did you find that female deacons are ordained??

[germ14]

Sounds like Protestantism. Except for the female deacons which is prohibited in 2 Timothy.

[Playfishpaste]

It is arguable that second timothy only applies to authority in marriage, not public offices.

But thanks very much hellas for the summary, lots of useful information. How does the diocese work though? The bishop is the highest rank?

[cfmonkey45]

Sounds like Protestantism. Except for the female deacons which is prohibited in 2 Timothy.

Depends on your definition of Protestantism. The International Church of the Foursquare Gospel was founded by Aimee Semple Mcpherson.

[germ14]

It depends on which type of deacon you are referring to, the early church's servants, or the modern church's representatives that control each congregation.

[Carpathian Wolf]

Mind sharing how literalist your interpretation of the bible is? From what I've looked into it seems pretty moderate with it, almost catholic, but I'm not sure if this only holds for greek and eastern orthodoxy.

http://orthodoxwiki.org/Holy_Scripture

[Zenith Darksea]

Basically this, except I don't know of any female deacons...

They exist in principle, although in reality I don't think that any female deacons have actually been ordained in quite a long time - the female diaconate is described as 'dormant'. Though there was a conference in Rhodes in the 1980s that recommended that deaconesses be ordained, so, it might happen again.

[Prodigal]

They exist in principle, although in reality I don't think that any female deacons have actually been ordained in quite a long time - the female diaconate is described as 'dormant'. Though there was a conference in Rhodes in the 1980s that recommended that deaconesses be ordained, so, it might happen again.

ah, thanks.

[HIC SVNT LEONES]

They exist in principle, although in reality I don't think that any female deacons have actually been ordained in quite a long time - the female diaconate is described as 'dormant'. Though there was a conference in Rhodes in the 1980s that recommended that deaconesses be ordained, so, it might happen again.

Not poking too much fun here but that sounded like you were explaining some sort of assassin sleeper cell. I think it was using the word dormant. Hehe.

[hellas1]

@Noble Lord,

In II timothy, maybe I timothy too (can't remember), it talks about deacons.

In greek, the term "deacon" is Diakonos and what a deacon does is "Diakonia."
The term just means wait upon/serve. The greek word for service is rendered "ministry" in english.

Now, in II tim. Paul gives the qualifications for a deacon.
In greek the word used there can be viewed as referring to the masculine OR feminine (In other words, men deacons or female deacons)

In Greek Orthodoxy, women deacons have been "ordained" as such for a long time.
I also believe that Eusebius in his History of the Church, wrote about female deacons.

BTW, Why wouldn't we see female deacons?
Paul said that Elders were to be men only, not women However,
NO mention is made of male only deacons and NO mention is made of
male only Apostles, Prophets, Pastors, Teachers and Evangelists!

The whole issue revolves around some words:
"Head/Leader" or Kefali in Greek. Commonly mistranslated and misunderstood.
"Male/Husband" or Anir in Greek. Commonly mistranslated
"Female/Wife" or Ginis in Greek. Commonly mistranslated
"Quietness and calmness" or Isihia in Greek. Commonly mistranslated in many bibles as "Silence"
"Shut up the mouth/Cause someone to be stopped from talking or "Zip up the lip" in the modern idiom" which is Feemo in Greek which is Commonly mistranslated as "Silence" also in many bibles.

The immediate issue is, is that these 5 words:Kefali, Anir, Ginis, Isihia, Feemo can be translated really either way.
Paul meant the words in ONE way when he wrote the letters, but there are times where we, 2000 yrs later almost, don't know exactly WHAT he was referring to, hence the umpteen different translations of these words.

The problem is, is that when these words are mistranslated, you have such things as "Male only ministry" or "Male led (Domineered) fellowships." IMHO, both these extremes are wrong. Leadership is NOT dominating over people or "Lording it over them, but being servant/examples of Christ Jesus to ALL the saints or "Agee-ee" in Greek.

I believe in male elders showing by example in serving, not barking out commands, as being leaders.
I also do not believe in male only priests, I Peter talks about Christians, male & female being kingly priests.
I also do not believe in the "office" of Patriarch, as it has NO scriptural foundation.

There are some good Christian works regarding the "Headship" of a husband in regards to his wife and the "Headship" of christ in regards to his church. Also, there are some works on the "Women in ministry" debate.

Just remember, "ministry" means service and God has male & female servants.
hellas1

[germ14]

@Noble Lord,

In II timothy, maybe I timothy too (can't remember), it talks about deacons.

In greek, the term "deacon" is Diakonos and what a deacon does is "Diakonia."
The term just means wait upon/serve. The greek word for service is rendered "ministry" in english.

Now, in II tim. Paul gives the qualifications for a deacon.
In greek the word used there can be viewed as referring to the masculine OR feminine (In other words, men deacons or female deacons)

In Greek Orthodoxy, women deacons have been "ordained" as such for a long time.
I also believe that Eusebius in his History of the Church, wrote about female deacons.

BTW, Why wouldn't we see female deacons?
Paul said that Elders were to be men only, not women However,
NO mention is made of male only deacons and NO mention is made of
male only Apostles, Prophets, Pastors, Teachers and Evangelists!

The whole issue revolves around some words:
"Head/Leader" or Kefali in Greek. Commonly mistranslated and misunderstood.
"Male/Husband" or Anir in Greek. Commonly mistranslated
"Female/Wife" or Ginis in Greek. Commonly mistranslated
"Quietness and calmness" or Isihia in Greek. Commonly mistranslated in many bibles as "Silence"
"Shut up the mouth/Cause someone to be stopped from talking or "Zip up the lip" in the modern idiom" which is Feemo in Greek which is Commonly mistranslated as "Silence" also in many bibles.

The immediate issue is, is that these 5 words:Kefali, Anir, Ginis, Isihia, Feemo can be translated really either way.
Paul meant the words in ONE way when he wrote the letters, but there are times where we, 2000 yrs later almost, don't know exactly WHAT he was referring to, hence the umpteen different translations of these words.

The problem is, is that when these words are mistranslated, you have such things as "Male only ministry" or "Male led (Domineered) fellowships." IMHO, both these extremes are wrong. Leadership is NOT dominating over people or "Lording it over them, but being servant/examples of Christ Jesus to ALL the saints or "Agee-ee" in Greek.

I believe in male elders showing by example in serving, not barking out commands, as being leaders.
I also do not believe in male only priests, I Peter talks about Christians, male & female being kingly priests.
I also do not believe in the "office" of Patriarch, as it has NO scriptural foundation.

There are some good Christian works regarding the "Headship" of a husband in regards to his wife and the "Headship" of christ in regards to his church. Also, there are some works on the "Women in ministry" debate.

Just remember, "ministry" means service and God has male & female servants.
hellas1

Modern deacons don't represent the role they did in the early church, they are more like elders now and should be treated as such, i.e. no women elders.

[Zenith Darksea]

Modern deacons don't represent the role they did in the early church, they are more like elders now and should be treated as such, i.e. no women elders.

No, I disagree there. They aren't even on a par with the parish priest, who is the literal 'elder' (presbyteros, the Greek for 'priest', means 'elder'). If female deacons were acceptable in the ancient era (and they certainly were, from the available evidence), then there is really no reason for them to be unacceptable now.

[germ14]

Yes, there are some denomination that have female pastors and such, but if you read 2 Timothy, Paul explicitly states that its wrong.

[cfmonkey45]

Yes, there are some denomination that have female pastors and such, but if you read 2 Timothy, Paul explicitly states that its wrong.

Firstly, reread Hellas' post. Paul didn't write it in English, and the Greek clearly shows that that isn't the case.

Secondly, why? Why is it so "wrong"?

[hellas1]

Hi all,

As I've stated previously,

THE misunderstanding occurs with the key 5 words + a few more:

"Head" Kefali in Greek
"Husband/Man" Anir in Greek
"Wife/Female" Geenees i Greek
"Quietness/Calmness" Eeseehia/Sigao in Greek (respectively for each word)
"Zipping up of the mouth or To muzzle up (literal Greek)" Fee-e-mo in Greek

Re-read my post regarding that specific mess.

+
"Elder" Yeron in Greek
"Overseer" Epeeskopos in Greek
"Bishop" Presveeteros in Greek

For this misunderstanding of terms &/or "offices," this is what I know:

Historically speaking the Role of Elders/Overseers/Bishops HAS changed quite dramatically.

An "Elder" means an "Old Man" in Greek or someone who has been "seasoned in Christ" for many years to provide "Oversight" or "To view from above" in Greek, which implies to see how the body of Christ is being fit together with one another and to the head, who is Christ Jesus.

Elders, in I & II Timothy, always refer to men not women. Paul explicitly tells us this.

I'm not sure what "Bishop" means in Greek and thus require more research time and effort to express this properly.

One thing that I have noticed is that in God's Word, ONLY men are called as Elders (See I & II Timothy, Titus) however, there is NO scriptural "ban" on female deacons. Deacon meaning "Servant" in Greek or Diakonos (For both men & women deacons).

Early Christian history gives a very strong case for female deacons as such, not the modern "Deacon" which really has no biblical nor traditional backing at all.

hellas1

[germ14]

Hi all,

As I've stated previously,

THE misunderstanding occurs with the key 5 words + a few more:

"Head" Kefali in Greek
"Husband/Man" Anir in Greek
"Wife/Female" Geenees i Greek
"Quietness/Calmness" Eeseehia/Sigao in Greek (respectively for each word)
"Zipping up of the mouth or To muzzle up (literal Greek)" Fee-e-mo in Greek

Re-read my post regarding that specific mess.

+
"Elder" Yeron in Greek
"Overseer" Epeeskopos in Greek
"Bishop" Presveeteros in Greek

For this misunderstanding of terms &/or "offices," this is what I know:

Historically speaking the Role of Elders/Overseers/Bishops HAS changed quite dramatically.

An "Elder" means an "Old Man" in Greek or someone who has been "seasoned in Christ" for many years to provide "Oversight" or "To view from above" in Greek, which implies to see how the body of Christ is being fit together with one another and to the head, who is Christ Jesus.

Elders, in I & II Timothy, always refer to men not women. Paul explicitly tells us this.

I'm not sure what "Bishop" means in Greek and thus require more research time and effort to express this properly.

One thing that I have noticed is that in God's Word, ONLY men are called as Elders (See I & II Timothy, Titus) however, there is NO scriptural "ban" on female deacons. Deacon meaning "Servant" in Greek or Diakonos (For both men & women deacons).

Early Christian history gives a very strong case for female deacons as such, not the modern "Deacon" which really has no biblical nor traditional backing at all.

hellas1

Thank you hellas, as I stated, deacons today in Protestant churches perform a role similar to elders, so they should be male only. Also I believe "I do not allow women to teach" is a ban on female ministers, women should teach women.

(If you want Scriptual reference for this just ask.)

[hellas1]

Hi germ,

No, sir, there is no such thing as "Only women teach women and women can't teach men."

This is unscriptural & unfounded.

Why?

First, God pours out his spirit on male AND female believers. ANY woman can be an apostle, prophet, pastor, teacher, or evangelist or deacon. There is no scriptural proof of any other doctrinal stance by the early church (Pre-Constantine).

Second, NO place in scripture do you find a strict "Men only" case of leadership other than Elders and leadership is ALWAYS laying down YOUR life for another. Jesus said "Wash feet, if you want to be the greatest."
There is NO hierarchy in the Kingdom of God other than God telling and showing US what to do & what heart posture we should have. Besides, the Lord humbled himself to death on a cross for US.

*Will you or any gentleman calling himself an "Elder" "wash the feet of the saints" and "humble yourself to death"? BTW, Every believer is called to do what I just mentioned and Elders also must meet the strict guidelines Paul set out.

Third, If you are going to use the II Timothy "Women don't teach men" verse, you'd better be WELL prepared to back up a few things:
A. Check out the immediate context of the letter & for whom it was written.
B. Check out the exact Greek words & what tense they're written in: Continuous Future, etc.
C. Pray & ask the Lord about why YOU believe that HE wouldn't use women in that capacity.
Are you unwilling to humble yourself perhaps and let go of any cultural notions of "Male dominance"?

Talk to you soon,
hellas1