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    Default Historians Reassess Battle of Agincourt

    Historians Reassess Battle of Agincourt





    By JAMES GLANZ
    Published: October 24, 2009
    MAISONCELLE, France — The heavy clay-laced mud behind the cattle pen on Antoine Renault’s farm looks as treacherous as it must have been nearly 600 years ago, when King Henry V rode from a spot near here to lead a sodden and exhausted English Army against a French force that was said to outnumber his by as much as five to one.



    No one can ever take away the shocking victory by Henry and his “band of brothers,” as Shakespeare would famously call them, on St. Crispin’s Day, Oct. 25, 1415. They devastated a force of heavily armored French nobles who had gotten bogged down in the region’s sucking mud, riddled by thousands of arrows from English longbowmen and outmaneuvered by common soldiers with much lighter gear. It would become known as the Battle of Agincourt.
    But Agincourt’s status as perhaps the greatest victory against overwhelming odds in military history — and a keystone of the English self-image — has been called into doubt by a group of historians in Britain and France who have painstakingly combed an array of military and tax records from that time and now take a skeptical view of the figures handed down by medieval chroniclers.
    The historians have concluded that the English could not have been outnumbered by more than about two to one. And depending on how the math is carried out, Henry may well have faced something closer to an even fight, said Anne Curry, a professor at the University of Southampton who is leading the study.
    Those cold figures threaten an image of the battle that even professional researchers and academics have been reluctant to challenge in the face of Shakespearean verse and centuries of English pride, Ms. Curry said.
    “It’s just a myth, but it’s a myth that’s part of the British psyche,” Ms. Curry said.
    The work, which has received both glowing praise and sharp criticism from other historians in the United States and Europe, is the most striking of the revisionist accounts to emerge from a new science of military history. The new accounts tend to be not only more quantitative but also more attuned to political, cultural and technological factors, and focus more on the experience of the common soldier than on grand strategies and heroic deeds.
    The approach has drastically changed views on everything from Roman battles with Germanic tribes, to Napoleon’s disastrous occupation of Spain, to the Tet offensive in the Vietnam War. But the most telling gauge of the respect being given to the new historians and their penchant for tearing down established wisdom is that it has now become almost routine for American commanders to call on them for advice on strategy and tactics in Afghanistan, Iraq and other present-day conflicts.
    The most influential example is the “Counterinsurgency Field Manual” adopted in 2006 by the United States Army and Marines and smack in the middle of the debate over whether to increase troop levels in Afghanistan.
    Gen. David H. Petraeus, who oversees the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan as the head of the United States Central Command, drew on dozens of academic historians and other experts to create the manual. And he named Conrad Crane, director of the United States Army Military History Institute at the Army War College, as the lead writer.
    Drawing on dozens of historical conflicts, the manual’s prime conclusion is the assertion that insurgencies cannot be defeated without protecting and winning over the general population, regardless of how effective direct strikes on enemy fighters may be.
    Mr. Crane said that some of his own early historical research involved a comparison of strategic bombing campaigns with attacks on civilians by rampaging armies during the Hundred Years’ War, when England tried and ultimately failed to assert control over continental France. Agincourt was perhaps the most stirring victory the English would ever achieve on French soil during the conflict.
    The Hundred Years’ War never made it into the field manual — the name itself may have served as a deterrent — but after sounding numerous cautions on the vast differences in time, technology and political aims, historians working in the area say that there are some uncanny parallels with contemporary foreign conflicts.
    For one thing, by the time Henry landed near the mouth of the Seine on Aug. 14, 1415, and began a rather uninspiring siege of a town called Harfleur, France was on the verge of a civil war, with factions called the Burgundians and the Armagnacs at loggerheads. Henry would eventually forge an alliance with the Burgundians, who in today’s terms would become his “local security forces” in Normandy, and he cultivated the support of local merchants and clerics, all practices that would have been heartily endorsed by the counterinsurgency manual.
    “I’m not one who sees history repeating itself, but I think a lot of attitudes do,” said Kelly DeVries, a professor of history at Loyola College in Maryland who has written extensively on medieval warfare. Mr. DeVries said that fighters from across the region began filtering toward the Armagnac camp as soon as Henry became allied with their enemies. “Very much like Al Qaeda in Iraq, there were very diverse forces coming from very, very different places to fight,” Mr. DeVries said.
    But first Henry would have his chance at Agincourt. After taking Harfleur, he marched rapidly north and crossed the Somme River, his army depleted by dysentery and battle losses and growing hungry and fatigued.
    At the same time, the fractious French forces hastily gathered to meet him.
    It is here that historians themselves begin fighting, and several take exception to the new scholarship by Ms. Curry’s team.

    Based on chronicles that he considers to be broadly accurate, Clifford J. Rogers, a professor of history at the United States Military Academy at West Point, argues that Henry was in fact vastly outnumbered. For the English, there were about 1,000 so-called men-at-arms in heavy steel armor from head to toe and 5,000 lightly armored men with longbows. The French assembled roughly 10,000 men-at-arms, each with an attendant called a gros valet who could also fight, and around 4,000 men with crossbows and other fighters.



    Although Mr. Rogers writes in a recent paper that the French crossbowmen were “completely outclassed” by the English archers, who could send deadly volleys farther and more frequently, the grand totals would result in a ratio of four to one, close to the traditional figures. Mr. Rogers said in an interview that he regarded the archival records as too incomplete to substantially change those estimates.
    Still, several French historians said in interviews this month that they seriously doubted that France, riven by factional strife and drawing from a populace severely depleted by the plague, could have raised an army that large in so short a time. The French king, Charles VI, was also suffering from bouts of insanity.
    “It was not the complete French power at Agincourt,” said Bertrand Schnerb, a professor of medieval history at the University of Lille, who estimated that there were 12,000 to 15,000 French soldiers.
    Ms. Curry, the Southampton historian, said she was comfortable with something close to that lower figure, based on her reading of historical archives, including military pay records, muster rolls, ships’ logs, published rosters of the wounded and dead, wartime tax levies and other surviving documents.
    On the English side, Ms. Curry calculates that Henry probably had at least 8,680 soldiers with him on his march to Agincourt. She names thousands of the likely troopers, from Adam Adrya, a man-at-arms, to Philip Zevan, an archer.
    And an extraordinary online database listing around a quarter-million names of men who served in the Hundred Years’ War, compiled by Ms. Curry and her collaborators at the universities in Southampton and Reading, shows that whatever the numbers, Henry’s army really was a band of brothers: many of the soldiers were veterans who had served on multiple campaigns together.
    “You see tremendous continuity with people who knew and trusted each other,” Ms. Curry said.
    That trust must have come in handy after Henry, through a series of brilliant tactical moves, provoked the French cavalry — mounted men-at-arms — into charging the masses of longbowmen positioned on the English flanks in a relatively narrow field between two sets of woods that still exist not far from Mr. Renault’s farm in Maisoncelle.
    The series of events that followed as the French men-at-arms slogged through the muddy, tilled fields behind the cavalry were quick and murderous.
    Volley after volley of English arrow fire maddened the horses, killed many of the riders and forced the advancing men-at-arms into a mass so dense that many of them could not even lift their arms.
    When the heavily armored French men-at-arms fell wounded, many could not get up and simply drowned in the mud as other men stumbled over them. And as order on the French lines broke down completely and panic set in, the much nimbler archers ran forward, killing thousands by stabbing them in the neck, eyes, armpits and groin through gaps in the armor, or simply ganged up and bludgeoned the Frenchmen to death.
    “The situation was beyond grisly; it was horrific in the extreme,” Mr. Rogers wrote in his paper.
    King Henry V had emerged victorious, and as some historians see it, the English crown then mounted a public relations effort to magnify the victory by exaggerating the disparity in numbers.
    Whatever the magnitude of the victory, it would not last. The French populace gradually soured on the English occupation as the fighting continued and the civil war remained unresolved in the decades after Henry’s death in 1422, Mr. Schnerb said.
    “They came into France saying, ‘You Frenchmen have civil war, and now our king is coming to give you peace,’ ” Mr. Schnerb said. “It was a failure.”
    Unwilling to blame a failed counterinsurgency strategy, Shakespeare pinned the loss on poor Henry VI:
    “Whose state so many had the managing, That they lost France and made his England bleed.”


    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/25/wo...agincourt.html

  2. #2

    Default Re: Historians Reassess Battle of Agincourt

    Yeah read this too, makes sense when you think about it, the smaller army that is.

    I read an analysis by John Keegan a couple of years back, which detailed how the battle might have
    developed. The French men at arms attacked on a narrow frontage, when the French and English lines joined the battle developed normally for a time, but as more French men at arms joined the fight they had the effect of depriving the men at the pointy end of the space to fight effectively as they pushed forward.
    When the archers began to attack from the flanks you had a mass collapse MTW style.

    School boy error, you'd never have a MTW player make that mistake!

  3. #3

    Default Re: Historians Reassess Battle of Agincourt

    Drowning in mud while your commrades trample you has to be one of the worst ways to die.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Historians Reassess Battle of Agincourt

    Quote Originally Posted by merocaine View Post
    Yeah read this too, makes sense when you think about it, the smaller army that is.

    I read an analysis by John Keegan a couple of years back, which detailed how the battle might have
    developed. The French men at arms attacked on a narrow frontage, when the French and English lines joined the battle developed normally for a time, but as more French men at arms joined the fight they had the effect of depriving the men at the pointy end of the space to fight effectively as they pushed forward.
    When the archers began to attack from the flanks you had a mass collapse MTW style.

    School boy error, you'd never have a MTW player make that mistake!
    If that player was indeed playing MTW, becouse if he was on the battle i doubt it.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Historians Reassess Battle of Agincourt

    History is written by the victors. It would not surprise me if the French army at Agincourt was smaller than what has been generally accepted.

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    Default Re: Historians Reassess Battle of Agincourt

    Its sad that it was all for nothing! Richard II, Henry VI, and their governments ruined England!
    Last edited by Medieval American; October 29, 2009 at 07:09 PM.


  7. #7

    Default Re: Historians Reassess Battle of Agincourt

    "Historians Reassess..."

    Isn't that pretty much all they do?



  8. #8

    Default Re: Historians Reassess Battle of Agincourt

    Quote Originally Posted by Awellesley View Post
    "Historians Reassess..."

    Isn't that pretty much all they do?
    It's a fairly important job. Without reassessing the past, we would have no clue as to our true origins, and people would still assume Europeans are indigenous peoples, as the average scholar did in the 17th century, or that the Americas were conquered my Spanish armies rather than biology and internal struggle.

    Pretty interesting article. That really does sound horrific.
    "killing thousands by stabbing them in the neck, eyes, armpits and groin through gaps in the armor, or simply ganged up and bludgeoned the Frenchmen to death." That sounds much more accurate than a true battle under those conditions.
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    Default Re: Historians Reassess Battle of Agincourt

    Quote Originally Posted by SeraphZ View Post
    Pretty interesting article. That really does sound horrific. "killing thousands by stabbing them in the neck, eyes, armpits and groin through gaps in the armor, or simply ganged up and bludgeoned the Frenchmen to death." That sounds much more accurate than a true battle under those conditions.
    Either that or a soccer match in England

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  10. #10

    Default Re: Historians Reassess Battle of Agincourt

    Quote Originally Posted by SeraphZ View Post
    It's a fairly important job. Without reassessing the past, we would have no clue as to our true origins, and people would still assume Europeans are indigenous peoples, as the average scholar did in the 17th century, or that the Americas were conquered my Spanish armies rather than biology and internal struggle.
    I was trying to make a joke. But I would classify doctors, police, teachers, politicians and parents as important jobs. Historians are somewhere around art critics. History is the constant revision of others opinions based on incomplete, inconclusive evidence and the amount of personal conjecture and subjectivity involved make it an art, not a science.



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    Default Re: Historians Reassess Battle of Agincourt

    It actually matters little as the only people who can give an accurate account of any battle are the people who were there. These people are the first people dismissed by historians as they are biased viewes. The only way detection can work is if it is near to the time of the incident. Current strategies and tactics would be easier to analyse and get to the bottom of then Agincourt. The problem is that all military commanders hide their mistakes and their successes as does everyone in this field. One of the first rule of strategy is to know yourself and know your enemy. Every commander does their best to make sure no one knows them. I salute them for it.



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    Default Re: Historians Reassess Battle of Agincourt

    Revisionist tripe. Anne Curry is currently in a minority among international scholars. History is indeed written by the winners, notably when the victor entirely assimilates another country and effectively 're-writes' the history books through act of perversion and omission.

    I stand by primary sources, such as the 15th Century Frenchman Jehan de Waurin who writes that the odds were at least four to one and possibly as much as six to one. And this is a contemporary Frenchman writing, with no clear need to embellish any sort of numbers.
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    Default Re: Historians Reassess Battle of Agincourt

    V.N.
    Revisionist tripe. Anne Curry is currently in a minority among international scholars. History is indeed written by the winners, notably when the victor entirely assimilates another country and effectively 're-writes' the history books through act of perversion and omission.
    The literature of the 100 Years war is plentiful both in France and England. Both sides had their victories and defeats, the French eventually recovered their land and the English booted out. Neither side assimilated the other. Anne Curry and her team are working from primary sources never before analysed en masse, ie the english muster rolls, creating a database that can be searched by name, occupation etc for everyone who appears on them. Working from the rolls they have produced what are the most accurate figures we can get for the English side at Agincourt, allowing for sickness, casualties at Harfleur. As for French numbers, I suspect that overall they had a substantial advantage, but how many effective fighting troops they had and how many actually got with range of the English is another matter.

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    Default Re: Historians Reassess Battle of Agincourt

    Quote Originally Posted by Rozanov View Post

    The literature of the 100 Years war is plentiful both in France and England. Both sides had their victories and defeats, the French eventually recovered their land and the English booted out. Neither side assimilated the other
    Of course. That was the point I was making. Ergo, history was not written by the winners.

    Anne Curry and her team are working from primary sources never before analysed en masse, ie the english muster rolls, creating a database that can be searched by name, occupation etc for everyone who appears on them.
    Curry is the only historian to have relied primarily on modern French administrative records when estimating the odds (rather than contemporary accounts). For instance, in her study, Curry does not include the number of armed French locals who answered the call to arms nor does she explain why many of the French (as well as English) chroniclers suggested the odds were far more in favor of the French. As a professor of mine would regularly state; certain historians attempt radical revisionism in order to bolster a struggling career. Unless you are truly exceptional, the only way to make your name known in the field is to be radical. Her claims are tenuous at best and fallacious at worst.
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  15. #15

    Default Re: Historians Reassess Battle of Agincourt

    interesting stuff, all this

    my two cents:

    i like it when 'established' facts are 'reassessed', because one of the first things you learn at university is to never take anything at face value, but to always ask yourself why and how such information came about.

    so it's great to read an alternative take on Agincourt, i saw that woman in a documentary where the same point was already raised.

    by the same token, however, i'd like to know what happened to the other argument: the French were still assembling when the first lines already engaged in battle, nobody knows how many Frenchmen were walking into the area during the day, nor how many walked away without ever getting anywhere near an Englishman. There's the story of some important Duke who arrived late and led a renewed attack at some point near the end of the battle, i believe that was when the prisoners got killed. I wouldn't be surprised if the opposite also happened: a few hundred arrive late, see how it's all going wrong and decide to leave.

    stuff like that makes it impossible to give facts about the French side, i think. even if there are scrolls saying how many Frenchman were employed for the campaign, many of those were just 'in the area'. Hard to tell how many were actually actively trudging through the mud.

    Don't take Shakespeare's word for it, but don't just believe this study is absolutely correct either. simply do some 'reassessing' of your own, is what I say

    Meanwhile, I can't think of Agincourt as just a battle at even odds. Whatever the numbers, you can hardly dispute the fact that Henry wrought a brilliant victory through clever use of terrain and through making sure his soldier's advantages were maximized while preventing the French from using their own advantages. Correct me if I'm wrong

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    Default Re: Historians Reassess Battle of Agincourt

    in the end,
    people died, people lived,
    life went on

    since Thermopylae, where 300 Spartans almost bested 1 000 000 man army of a thousand nations, people have under estimated their own size and greatly exagerated the enemy. Thermopylae was probably the greatest example of this. Its human nature to embelish a story.

    I dont think Curry is wrong in her assesment, Despite her best efforts, it is impossible to validate either arguement as it is based on hersey and partial statistic analysis. It takes nothing away from the gory horror and heroism of that day, nor does it change the outcome.

    In any case, it is irrelevant to the reality. 1 to 1 or 10 to one, Agincourt was a disater for the French and a great moral building victory for the English. Unfortunatly, it had oposite affects, it taught the French to use their heads and made the English believe the were better than they were.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Historians Reassess Battle of Agincourt

    In all honesty, even defeating 2 to 1 odds is a great feat, especially the amount of nobility the English managed to destroy in that battle. I myself can imagine a battle of 6-8 thousand english against 20-30 thousand French. Even if the French were only 10 000 and the english had 6000, the French were all in Plate armor, a very expensive army. I do not think that the French knights would be so eager to fight the English with only 4k more men to make them so bold and go "LAWLZ I R LEET SAUCE PWNZOR KNIGHTS!!!" They would have to have atleast a 2 to 1 odd of winning to make anyone think that they're safe and invincible.

    I am 99% sure they would know the power of the longbow and would hesitate if they had smaller numbers, they would need the 20k vs 6k to be in the position of simply marching forward and smashing the think line like a sledge hammer. The mind set of mud and archers on the flanks were probably on the back of their minds. If your in a giant horde of steel, your going to think the odds are pretty much in your favor against such a few "band of brothers."

    All in all, even if the English had actually 29k longbowmen and 1 k men-at-arms and the French with 1k knights of all nobility marching towards the English line, it was still a disaster and success for the English being able to pwn the nobility of France. All these theorists and historians that keep on trying to make the English victory dwindle in numbers of the French just make the French seem even more foolish into attacking the English with such slim numbers that they supposedly have.

  18. #18
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    Default Re: Historians Reassess Battle of Agincourt

    psycology and code of honour had a lot to do with it.
    UInderstand, these were feudal armies, lead by overpriviledged tyrants with visions of glory. they thought themselves invinceble and that god would carry them to victory.

    they learned a lesson, the real world doesnt care who your daddy is and arrows, ... hurt.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Historians Reassess Battle of Agincourt

    How do you explain all the other major battles.

    There are like 8-9 other Major battles where the english are outnumbered at 2-1 or greater and win with fewer casulties.

    I think its a simple case of better tactics and planning and effectiveness of the longbow, Rather than winner writing the history and mud.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Historians Reassess Battle of Agincourt

    Just because something is biased doesn't mean it is wrong.
    It's surprising how many people believe or make the logical jump to conclude that just because something is biased means it is wrong and has no factual basis.

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