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  1. #1

    Default Young Earth Creationists & plate tectonics

    Typical evolution "debates" here always end the same way: everyone loses interest except for two hardcore dudes duking it out over semantics or biblical interpretation..."that's micro-evolution!", or "6 God-days can be 6000 years, or 4 billion years!"...comes to mind. How tedious.

    Let's try to avoid this, shall we?

    My question: how can anyone still believe that the world is only ~6000 years old, given the overwhelming geological evidence to the contrary?

    We don't even need to bring evolution into the mix (in fact, please don't), as it's all plainly recorded in the Earth's sedimentary strata. Here's a few observations to start with:

    1. Fitting of extant continents together, into supercontinent Pangaea. Coincidence?
    2. Mid oceanic spreading centers, equidistant between separated continents (Mid Atlantic Ridge).
    3. Spreading rates calculated by earlier workers, later confirmed by satellite measurement: 3.5cm/yr for Europe and N America, for instance.
    4. Youngest oceanic crust located immediately adjacent to spreading centers, increasing in age (and overlying sediment burden) with distance from spreading center...hundreds of millions of years of spreading, thusly recorded.
    5. Fossil assemblages on opposite shorelines, separated by thousands of km, sharing identical communities, rock types, geologic sequences, depositional events, etc...which span an identical age range.
    6. Seismic activity events recorded in depositional environments along active fault scarps, going back much further than 6000 years.

    Please respond with something a little more substantial than "Cuz God made it so...", or "Satan's foolin you...".
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  2. #2

    Default Re: Young Earth Creationists & plate tectonics

    Quote Originally Posted by chamaeleo View Post
    ...Please respond with something a little more substantial than "Cuz God made it so...", or "Satan's foolin you...".
    I agree with you.

    However, what if "Because God made it so" is actually their reason?

    Remember, Science and Religion do NOT deal in the same subject matter. They are completely different and rest on very different principles. Within religion, they may find perfectly logical and self-justifiable reasons for saying "Because God made it so." in response to your questions.

    Science and Religion do not draw from the same well. It's fruitless for one to insist that the other obey a set of standards for evidence when that standard doesn't exist for them.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Young Earth Creationists & plate tectonics

    Please respond with something a little more substantial than "Cuz God made it so...", or "Satan's foolin you...".
    Why not? After all, this is the exact argument those fools use to support their belief. If they objectively looked at all available evidence they wouldn't be young-earthers, now, would they?

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    Last Roman's Avatar ron :wub:in swanson
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    Default Re: Young Earth Creationists & plate tectonics

    What? While both certainly have major differences in topics, creation of the world certainly a topic that both subjects cover.
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    Arch-hereticK's Avatar Indefinitely Banned
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    Default Re: Young Earth Creationists & plate tectonics

    Quote Originally Posted by Last Roman View Post
    What? While both certainly have major differences in topics, creation of the world certainly a topic that both subjects cover.
    Fiction also covers the creation of the world as a topic. Does fiction deserve consideration while investigating how the universe formed itself?

    Science is about un-answered questions, religion is about un-questionable answers.

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    Last Roman's Avatar ron :wub:in swanson
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    Default Re: Young Earth Creationists & plate tectonics

    Quote Originally Posted by Arch-hereticK View Post
    Science is about un-answered questions, religion is about un-questionable answers.
    That may be what they are today, but both were created to explain the previously unexplained.
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    Default Re: Young Earth Creationists & plate tectonics

    Quote Originally Posted by Last Roman View Post
    That may be what they are today, but both were created to explain the previously unexplained.
    Well the only relevant definition is a contemporary one.

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    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Young Earth Creationists & plate tectonics

    " Please respond with something a little more substantial than "Cuz God made it so...", or "Satan's foolin you..."."

    chamaeleo,

    You ask a question then restrict the answer. What kind of question is that?

    Nonetheless I will repeat what I have said before. God made the world and all creation in the six, 24 hour, days He said that He did. Not only that but He made it an up and running planet where all the things thereon were in many cases mature. And when the fall came about all things started to grow as is natural.

    Now if you had been able to be there on say the eighth day with saw, pick and shovel and had cut down a tree that tree would have had quite a number of rings on it, showing an age that it couldn't possibly have had being made only a few days ago. And if you had dug up some soil you might well have come across a fossil showing age where that was not possible and so on.

    But if you had an excavator and dug into the earth much further you also would find the questionable things you seek answers for. And the planet being active there would have been much movement of things like mountains still rising and sea levels perhaps dropping as the plates were brought under the plan of God which if not totally described in Gensis is certainly hinted at.

    And when the flood came and went that event more or less settled things down to what we see today. Yet that was not the complete end in itself because we know that the winds have covered up much that was of yesterday and is still happening. The world is in continual fluxation and that because of the plan of God which must be if any are to be saved according to His word.

    It is a strange thing that had all this not been done, and I mean the fall of all creation, we as the human species, wouldn't have learned what we have. We wouldn't have the science on which to challenge God had the fall not happened and we wouldn't be in a postion as some are to make themselves a kin to apes. So you get an opportunity to believe God or believe something else.

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    Default Re: Young Earth Creationists & plate tectonics

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    " Please respond with something a little more substantial than "Cuz God made it so...", or "Satan's foolin you..."."

    chamaeleo,

    You ask a question then restrict the answer. What kind of question is that?

    Nonetheless I will repeat what I have said before. God made the world and all creation in the six, 24 hour, days He said that He did. Not only that but He made it an up and running planet where all the things thereon were in many cases mature. And when the fall came about all things started to grow as is natural.

    Now if you had been able to be there on say the eighth day with saw, pick and shovel and had cut down a tree that tree would have had quite a number of rings on it, showing an age that it couldn't possibly have had being made only a few days ago. And if you had dug up some soil you might well have come across a fossil showing age where that was not possible and so on.

    But if you had an excavator and dug into the earth much further you also would find the questionable things you seek answers for. And the planet being active there would have been much movement of things like mountains still rising and sea levels perhaps dropping as the plates were brought under the plan of God which if not totally described in Gensis is certainly hinted at.

    And when the flood came and went that event more or less settled things down to what we see today. Yet that was not the complete end in itself because we know that the winds have covered up much that was of yesterday and is still happening. The world is in continual fluxation and that because of the plan of God which must be if any are to be saved according to His word.

    It is a strange thing that had all this not been done, and I mean the fall of all creation, we as the human species, wouldn't have learned what we have. We wouldn't have the science on which to challenge God had the fall not happened and we wouldn't be in a postion as some are to make themselves a kin to apes. So you get an opportunity to believe God or believe something else.
    So basically, I have no shred of proof and it's completely illogical and even non-sensical, but some book written a few thousand years ago by people that said about themselves they were divinely inspired said so, and I must believe that book because this religion that's completely dependent on that book says the book is true.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Young Earth Creationists & plate tectonics

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    " Please respond with something a little more substantial than "Cuz God made it so...", or "Satan's foolin you..."."

    chamaeleo,

    You ask a question then restrict the answer. What kind of question is that?
    Sorry, I was just hoping for a less than generalistic answer...like something that actually tries to refute the evidence.

    Let's expand upon your "God made it so" argument. Why would he bother creating the a world which appears to have been dynamic across billions of years, up to and beyond the magic 6000y before present? Is it but an illusion, and would it be His, or Satan's (...or both)? Or, was 99.99999994% of the Earth's history compressed into 6 days like a tape deck in ultra-fast forward, before He hit "pause"...popped Adam & Eve into existence...then hit "play"?

    Also, where is the widespread evidence of Noah's catastrophic flood?

    I simply do not understand the reason Creationists insist on beginning the Big Clock with the advent of Man, despite overwhelmingly contrary evidence...although I suspect it has something to do with Pride (supposedly a sin, albeit elevated to Virtuous status wherever Man's "Dominion" is concerned).

    I'd meant to add more evidence to the pile, but I'll refrain until somebody can address the iceberg's tip briefly listed in my original post.
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  11. #11

    Default Re: Young Earth Creationists & plate tectonics

    Quote Originally Posted by chamaeleo View Post

    I simply do not understand the reason Creationists insist on beginning the Big Clock with the advent of Man, despite overwhelmingly contrary evidence...although I suspect it has something to do with Pride (supposedly a sin, albeit elevated to Virtuous status wherever Man's "Dominion" is concerned).
    Its not pride about man, its being painted into a corner.

    When the idea was first out, it didn't seem so wrong to most people so it became accepted dogma.

    Then real evidence came in, and some tried to reject this evidence it just got to a point where to admit defeat would be to humiliating, to damning, so they dogmatically hold on because admitting defeat is unthinkable.
    "When I die, I want to die peacefully in my sleep, like Fidel Castro, not screaming in terror, like his victims."

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  12. #12

    Default Re: Young Earth Creationists & plate tectonics

    For fun I decided to see how they attempt to answer it.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Creation Science Rebuttals

    Answers Magazine

    A Catastrophic Breakup: A Scientific Look at Catastrophic Plate Tectonics

    Volume 2, Issue 2 (March 2007)


    Review by Greg Neyman
    © Answers In Creation

    Young earth creationists have always had a problem with plate tectonics. In their latest effort to solve this thorn in their side, Andrew Snelling has provided an article for Answers Magazine that examines what he calls Catastrophic Plate Tectonics.1 This article was also the Daily Feature on the Answers in Genesis website on 21 March 2007.
    For those who may not know what this is about, the earth’s crust is divided like a puzzle into many pieces that slide about on the earth’s surface. To learn more about this, I encourage you to read about plate tectonics in the Answers In Creation Online Geology Curriculum for home schoolers, Chapter 9, Plate Tectonics. In short, plate tectonics is responsible for building mountains, such as the Himalaya Mountains. Whereas old earth believers agree with geologists that these mountains built up over millions of years, young earth creationists would say they formed rapidly through a catastrophic plate tectonic scenario.

    Complaints about Old Earth Plate Tectonics

    The first criticism Snelling makes of the slow and gradual model is magnetic reversals. The earth’s magnetic field reverses polarity, and this is seen in the ocean bedrock that is extruded from spreading centers in the middle of the oceans. This can be seen in the graphic at right. As new magma is extruded at the oceanic ridge, it cools, and the magnetic rock crystals align according to the current polarity of the earth's magnetic field. About every million years or so, the field reverses. Snelling's criticism is that at depth, the farther you drill into the ocean floor, you no longer see a single polarity, but you see a mixture of polarities. Snelling claims,

    "This is contrary to what would be expected with slow-and-gradual formation of the new oceanic crust accompanied by slow spreading rates. But it is just what is expected with extremely rapid formation of new oceanic crust and rapid magnetic reversals during the Flood."

    However, this is not the case at all.
    The diagram shown above is a simplification of the actual process. The oceanic crust is 5-10 miles thick. As noted, when the rock cools, it reflects the polarity at the time of cooling. Rocks extruded on the surface, or close to the surface, cool relatively fast. As you go deeper, the rocks are closer to the upper mantle (lithosphere), thus they are hotter, and cool slower. In fact, since they have a source of heat from below, the lower several miles of the crust would have pockets of molten rock which remain melted for many years. As the crust moves, portions of the lower crust may be re-melted, and re-solidify. The partially melted rock at depth in the crust would contain a record of the polarity at the time it hardened, which could be a time of reversed polarity millions of years after the rocks on the surface of the crust hardened. Thus, when you drill deep core samples, you would expect to see a hodge-podge of magnetic polarity. Contrary to Snelling's claim, this is not evidence of rapid reversals.
    Next, Snelling points to sediment at two subduction zone trenches, which he claims should show signs of compression, be deformed, and faulted. Instead, the sediment is flat-lying, and has no compression structures. Of course, we are talking about soft ocean sediments that are water saturated. If you compress it, it reforms, just like a thin mud mixture. Think of it like a runny cake mix. If you pour it into a pan on one side, it spreads out and flattens. In order to get compression features, the mud has to be much drier.

    The Catastrophic Model

    The model that Snelling discusses was created by Steven Austin, one of his colleagues at the Institute for Creation Research. It starts with a pre-Flood supercontinent, similar to Pangea. Austin "cracks" the ocean floor adjacent to the continent, causing the heavy ocean floor to start sinking into the upper mantle. The images (Figures 3 & 4) show this process. What is interesting is that it roughly shows the accepted Pangea supercontinent. For example, it shows Africa, South America, and North America. However, the continents of Pangea already contain many thousands of feet of sediment that was already deposited, yet in the Flood model these were laid down by the Flood. Which is correct? One young earth model has the rocks already deposited, and the other deposits them in the Flood.
    Moving on, the slabs of ocean crust subduct faster, several feet per second. This causes large scale convection currents in the partially molten upper mantle, which produces new rocks at the mid-ocean ridges. Eventually, all of the oceanic crust is subducted, and new crust is in its place. The mid-ocean ridges vaporize water, producing a "linear curtain of supersonic steam jets along the entire 43,500 mi of the seafloor rift zones. He says this may be the "fountains of the great deep" in Genesis 7:11. This water also falls back to earth as intense global rain.

    Problems with the Catastrophic Model

    The intense global rain comes from the supersonic steam jets. This means that the entire process of catastrophic plate tectonics, and the replacement of the entire ocean floor, must occur within 40 days, for the rain only lasted 40 days. The rain from the steam jets would have continued a few days after the steam jets stopped, so the young earth model would then only have about 35 days to complete this process. Considering a 2,000 mile ocean floor being subducted (some had to be larger than this), that means the rate of subduction would have been an average of about 3 feet per second

    Problem #1: Dating

    According to the young earth model, all of the sea floor would be about the same age, since they were created in less than 40 days. However, radiometric dating of the ocean floor indicates the age of the ocean floor changes gradually, from brand new at the mid-ocean ridge, to about 150 million years old at the farthest points away from the ridge. This correlates with the rate of spreading and the movement we observe today with the plates. A second method of dating is available. Sediment built up on the ocean floor indicates how old the floor is. The further away from the mid-ocean ridge, the more sediment is present. The sediment build-up is consistent with the old earth model.

    Problem #2: Hot Spots

    The island chain of Hawaii stretches for thousands of miles. The volcano that formed these islands is known as a hot spot, which is currently fueling the volcanoes on the big island of Hawaii. If the young earth model is correct, then all of these islands, from Midway to the current island of Hawaii, should be roughly the same age. When examined, they show a gradual aging as you go from Hawaii to Midway. Dating of Midway Island gives an age of about 28 million years. Midway is only the midway point of this chain of islands, known as the Hawaiian-Emporer seamout chain. It contains 80 seamounts, or old volcanoes, that stretches over 3,600 miles. These islands could not have formed over the short time frame proposed by the catastrophic plate tectonic model.

    Problem #3: Guyots

    A guyot is a flat-topped underwater mountain. The tops were eroded flat from being at the ocean surface, prior to them sinking below sea level. The catastrophic model does not give them enough time to form, erode, and sink.

    Problem #4: Mountain Building

    The catastrophic plate tectonic model would also cause the continental land masses to collide, forming mountain ranges. Snelling fails to mention it in this article. Probably the easiest for people to understand is the Himalayan Mountain range, which is being formed from the collision of the Indo-Australian plate with the Eurasian plate. Today, the Indo-Australian plate is still moving at a rate of 67mm/year. The standard geologic model says that 70 million years ago the two plates started colliding. After the Tethys Ocean between the two plates was completely closed, about 50 million years ago, the mountains gradually began to build up. This is why there are marine fossils near the top of Mount Everest. It is from these Tethys Ocean sediments.
    The catastrophic model would form most of the mountains in less than 40 days. If the young earth model were correct, then the soft sediments of this ancient ocean would have been rapidly thrust into the air as the mountains built. The rain from the flood would have washed the sediments away rapidly, leaving no evidence of the Tethys Ocean. In fact, when you thrust two masses of mud together, you don't get the jagged peaks we see in the Himalayas...you would get gently rolling hills of mud.
    There are many young earth creationists who have long pointed out that the marine fossils at the top of Mount Everest prove the mountain was once covered by the waters of Noah's Flood. However, they leave out one very important point. The marine fossils are in a metamorphosed limestone. The rock was altered after the rock hardened. If they were simply deposited over the top of Everest, there would be a layer of limestone covering the entire area of the mountains. The fossil bearing rock is part of the mountain, and not deposited on top of it.

    Problem #5: Carbon Dioxide and Sulfuric Acid

    One of the main features of this model is the entire replacement of the sea floor through mid-oceanic ridge spreading, which is basically a volcano underwater. In addition to molten rock, volcanoes emit large amounts of carbon dioxide gas, which is a known greenhouse gas.
    We currently have about 400 parts per million of CO2 in our atmosphere. In a study that takes into account the amount of CO2 released by a volcano, geologist Glenn Morton has calculated that the young earth flood model would give the earth an atmosphere that is at a minimum 58,615 parts per million. Global warming scientists are concerned about the temperature rise on the earth if the carbon dioxide level reaches 600 parts per million, but the flood would cause almost 100 times that level. Noah and his family would have been steamed alive, and the ark would become a floating tomb.
    Volcanoes also give off large amounts of sulfuric acid, which has an exothermic reaction with water. In other words, sulfuric acid and water combined give off heat, further adding to the greenhouse effect of the carbon dioxide.

    Problem #6: Sea Level Rise

    Snelling claims that,

    As the ocean floor warms during this process, its rock expands, displacing sea water, forcing a dramatic rise in sea level. Ocean water would have swept up onto and over the continental land surfaces, carrying vast quantities of sediments and marine organisms with them to form the thick, fossiliferous sedimentary rock layers we now find blanketing large portions of today’s continents. Rocks like this are magnificently exposed in the Grand Canyon, for example.

    Fortunately, we have an excellent record of the sea level over the last 8,000+ years.


    As you can see, many data points from 8 different locations gives us a good record of the average sea level. This chart shows that during the supposed global flood, which is dated by young earth creationists to be about 2,300 B.C., or 4,300 years ago, the sea level was approximately one meter less than it is now. There is nothing in any of the historical sea level studies to indicate a vast flood occurred at anytime in earth's recent history.
    The other implication of a single sea level rise is that the rock types deposited by Noah's Flood would have looked like a single sea transgression. In other words, there would have been a sandstone, topped by shale and/or limestone, and the reverse sequence as the water receded. Instead, we have in the geologic record many thousands of sea level transgressions, showing that the sea level fluctuated up and down many times over millions of years. There is no evidence that a single great sea transgression occurred.

    Problem #7. Dinosaurs

    Yes, dinosaurs present a problem for this model as well. Recall Snelling's last quote, in which the sea level rose, bringing the fossils of marine animals over the continental land surfaces. The dinosaur fossils are deposited on top of all the layers of rock that contain only marine organisms. For example, he mentions the Grand Canyon rocks as an example, but there are no fossil dinosaurs in the rocks of the Grand Canyon. You have to go 3,000 feet higher up the rock column to reach dinosaurs. Not only that, but all of the dinosaur trace fossils...the footprints, nest sites, eggs, feeding sites, and dinosaur poop, are all located with the bones. How could the dinosaurs be walking around, pooping, eating, and mating, right in the middle of the great flood?

    Conclusion

    Although there are other problems, these give you an idea of the irreconcilable problems of the young earth catastrophic plate tectonics model. Interestingly, in Snelling's conclusion, he states that this model is still new. In reality, young earth scientists have been playing with it for the last 45 years, as can be evidenced by Henry Morris mentioning tectonics in his 1961 book The Genesis Flood, although at the time he did not flesh out the idea. The model in its current form stems from at least 1994.2
    What is even more telling is that the problems mentioned above have been pointed out to young earth creationists in the past, yet they have failed to address these issues. Why would they ignore issues that completely invalidate their model? The answer to this has to be the intended audience. Answers Magazine is written for young earth creationists. They know they cannot convince real scientists, so they don't need to address these issues. In other words, what their followers don't know, can't hurt them.


    http://www.answersincreation.org/reb..._tectonics.htm
    "When I die, I want to die peacefully in my sleep, like Fidel Castro, not screaming in terror, like his victims."

    My shameful truth.

  13. #13
    Last Roman's Avatar ron :wub:in swanson
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    Default Re: Young Earth Creationists & plate tectonics

    I'd say that my definition is still pretty relevant. In fact, confining religion (since there are so many variations) is pretty naive

    now look what you've gone and made me do; defend religion!
    Last edited by Last Roman; October 29, 2009 at 01:01 PM.
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    Arch-hereticK's Avatar Indefinitely Banned
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    Default Re: Young Earth Creationists & plate tectonics

    Quote Originally Posted by Last Roman View Post
    I'd say that my definition is still pretty relevant.
    We'll just have to agree to disagree, I'm afraid.........................(but I'm slightly more right)

    You monster.

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    CtrlAltDe1337's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: Young Earth Creationists & plate tectonics

    Quote Originally Posted by chamaeleo View Post
    My question: how can anyone still believe that the world is only ~6000 years old, given the overwhelming geological evidence to the contrary?

    We don't even need to bring evolution into the mix (in fact, please don't), as it's all plainly recorded in the Earth's sedimentary strata. Here's a few observations to start with:

    1. Fitting of extant continents together, into supercontinent Pangaea. Coincidence?
    2. Mid oceanic spreading centers, equidistant between separated continents (Mid Atlantic Ridge).
    3. Spreading rates calculated by earlier workers, later confirmed by satellite measurement: 3.5cm/yr for Europe and N America, for instance.
    4. Youngest oceanic crust located immediately adjacent to spreading centers, increasing in age (and overlying sediment burden) with distance from spreading center...hundreds of millions of years of spreading, thusly recorded.
    5. Fossil assemblages on opposite shorelines, separated by thousands of km, sharing identical communities, rock types, geologic sequences, depositional events, etc...which span an identical age range.
    6. Seismic activity events recorded in depositional environments along active fault scarps, going back much further than 6000 years.
    There are two approaches to this answer, both of which may be true.

    First, it is my opinion that God formed a fully mature earth. He didn't make an empty ball of rock that slowly (over millions/billions of years) formed into something similar to what we have today, and somewhere along the line some critters crawled up out of the mud, etc. No; God created the world fully formed. That would include the rocks, with hills, valleys, mountains, etc. to a certain extend

    Secondly, and most importantly, if we take the Biblical account as accurate recorded history (which is what I maintain), then the Great Flood would have probably radically altered the landscape of the earth. Add in other natural disasters (volcanoes, the ice age, etc) that have happened on a massive scale in the past, and you can get thousands/millions/billions of years worth of change in a very small amount of time. The fundamental way scientists age the earth does not take into account sufficiently these sorts of disasters.

    Does that answer your question? While you may not agree with it, I think you will find that, in context of regarding Scripture as accurate, it fits in well with the world. It merely interprets the data we have differently based on different assumptions.


  16. #16

    Default Re: Young Earth Creationists & plate tectonics

    Quote Originally Posted by CtrlAltDe1337 View Post
    I think you will find that, in context of regarding Scripture as accurate, it fits in well with the world. It merely interprets the data we have differently based on different assumptions.
    You're arguing backwards, fitting the facts to your theories.

    Quote Originally Posted by CtrlAltDe1337 View Post
    Add in other natural disasters (volcanoes, the ice age, etc) that have happened on a massive scale in the past, and you can get thousands/millions/billions of years worth of change in a very small amount of time. The fundamental way scientists age the earth does not take into account sufficiently these sorts of disasters.
    Arthur C. Clarke said "any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic" (for people like us).

    You may know HOW scientists age the Earth but you don't know WHY the method they use works.

    You're not that different from me, unconsciously I absolutely do not accept my mortality, how can I? It's terrifying and traumatic. But consciously, the idea that the bible accurately describes reality is just too absurd to consider for even a second. I don't think you can accept it on either level, and more sympathetic I could not be.

    And of course I know this won't convince you of anything. Nothing can. Religion and the promise of immortality is an impenetrable defense mechanism. Part of me even envies you, you're sparing yourself a lot of anxiety through complete denial but you will die and lose consciousness not for a million years, not for a billion years, not for a trillion years but for all eternity.

    Sounds off topic but you can draw a straight line connecting his fears with his beliefs about the Earth's age.

    It is a very interesting topic, I'm sure there are some very eloquent defenses of a 6000 year old Earth. The depth and complexity of self-delusion has no limits and you can't even put a crack in the facade with good science and hard facts.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Young Earth Creationists & plate tectonics

    Quote Originally Posted by CtrlAltDe1337 View Post
    There are two approaches to this answer, both of which may be true.

    First, it is my opinion that God formed a fully mature earth. He didn't make an empty ball of rock that slowly (over millions/billions of years) formed into something similar to what we have today, and somewhere along the line some critters crawled up out of the mud, etc. No; God created the world fully formed. That would include the rocks, with hills, valleys, mountains, etc. to a certain extend
    How do you rationalize the disparity between what you might observe (if you were to open your eyes and unplug your ears), and what was written a few thousand years ago...subsequently translated and reinterpreted many times over...and delivered to you as Truth by those who raised you? "Fully formed"...OK. Yet, why so many discrepancies between reality and that Which Was Written?

    Secondly, and most importantly, if we take the Biblical account as accurate recorded history (which is what I maintain), then the Great Flood would have probably radically altered the landscape of the earth. Add in other natural disasters (volcanoes, the ice age, etc) that have happened on a massive scale in the past, and you can get thousands/millions/billions of years worth of change in a very small amount of time. The fundamental way scientists age the earth does not take into account sufficiently these sorts of disasters.
    Sorry, this doesn't work on so many levels. It's mighty audacious to discard 99.9999999% of the Earth's history as instananeously Created, complete with fully intact geological records of sea level fluctuations, volcanic eruptions, mass extinctions, continental drift, and so on...then...in the same sentence, select a few of those very processes as recent "evidence" for the Great Flood. Today's patterns of mineralization, erosion and deposition have been going on for much longer than 6000 years, you cannot with a rational mind define "the beginning" of an epic story within the final sentence of a 5000 page book...just because you refuse to read anything printed ahead of the last few words.

    What specifically do you point to as Great Flood evidence? If it had occurred, we would expect to see a global transgression of x meters in vertical shift of sea level (after correcting for local tectonic activity)...essentially, a 5500 (?) year old temporary shoreline around the perimeter of every continent. We would also see evidence of 5500 year old sediment and flood deposits all over the place, and many thousands of islands showing signs of total inundation around that time. No such gigantic Bathtub Ring exists, so how might we completely miss something so dramatic as a global flood? Don't even try to say that 5500 years is long enough to obscure anything, since such evidence for events such as the offshore bollide impact at Chixculub ~65,000,000 years ago only gets stronger with every year!

    Does that answer your question? While you may not agree with it, I think you will find that, in context of regarding Scripture as accurate, it fits in well with the world. It merely interprets the data we have differently based on different assumptions.
    I really do appreciate your effort, but the data you refer to remains ambiguous and your means of interpretation is even less defined. What's more, by constraining the Earth's age to 6000 years you're arbitrarily ignoring the most significant events in the Earth's geologic record. It is entirely feasible to state that God simply played in his sandbox for the VAST majority of the Earth's history, and that Man is a relatively recent Creation (by means of His divine process: Evolution). The only conflict this statement poses, is with Man's creation, the words written in the Bible. It would be so much more rational to just admit that your Christian ancestors did not have all of the answers, but it appears that the Pride of Man knows no such bounds.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phier
    Its not pride about man, its being painted into a corner.

    When the idea was first out, it didn't seem so wrong to most people so it became accepted dogma.

    Then real evidence came in, and some tried to reject this evidence it just got to a point where to admit defeat would be to humiliating, to damning, so they dogmatically hold on because admitting defeat is unthinkable.
    True, yet it is pride in mankind's inherent superiority which allows such folk the luxury of justifying their poor management of "God's creation" in the name of Dominion. It is not just fear of defeat. It is also an excuse to trash the planet. I remain unsure which is worse.
    Giving tax breaks to the wealthy, is like giving free dessert coupons to the morbidly obese.

    IDIOT BASTARD SON of MAVERICK

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