Flanking with archers?

[Naked Emperor]

Now I am an oldtimer and have been playing total war since Shogun but I have never flanked with archers.
The only time I flank with missile units is with horse archers or javelins. Usually when I take my archer unit anywhere from my spears, the A.I beelines for it with a cavalry. Therefore I am interested to hear from people who use this tactic and how they implement it?

[Caesar Clivus]

Flanking with archers? I cant say I ever do that because they end up being dead

[Persian Horseman]

hhmmm....

I haven't flanked with archers for hand to hand combat, but what i sometimes do if I have range unit superiority, is that I wait for my infantry line to engage the enemy infantry, and my cavarly to do the same with the enemies.

(i usually first destroy the enemy cavarly before full engagement if possible)

then once everyone is engaged, ill send some of my archers to run behind enemy lines and start shooting them from the back. So will also use fire arrows.

This will have the following effects:

1. lots of casualties to the enemy for having arrows shot at them from the back

2. loss of morale due to high casualty and fire arrows

3. the AI will try to fight this by sending its infantry after my archers - which will end up thinning its own infantry lines

4. the thinning infantry line will see their own friends walking back, fire arrows scaring them and lots of casualties from arrows and in a lot of cases just break, or at least disintergrate the enemy line into small lumps that become easier to break.


but this will only work if enemy doesnt have cavarly. and that their archers dont charge ur archers

[Naked Emperor]

hhmmm....

I haven't flanked with archers for hand to hand combat, but what i sometimes do if I have range unit superiority, is that I wait for my infantry line to engage the enemy infantry, and my cavarly to do the same with the enemies.

(i usually first destroy the enemy cavarly before full engagement if possible)

then once everyone is engaged, ill send some of my archers to run behind enemy lines and start shooting them from the back. So will also use fire arrows.

This will have the following effects:

1. lots of casualties to the enemy for having arrows shot at them from the back

2. loss of morale due to high casualty and fire arrows

3. the AI will try to fight this by sending its infantry after my archers - which will end up thinning its own infantry lines

4. the thinning infantry line will see their own friends walking back, fire arrows scaring them and lots of casualties from arrows and in a lot of cases just break, or at least disintergrate the enemy line into small lumps that become easier to break.


but this will only work if enemy doesnt have cavarly. and that their archers dont charge ur archers

I meant flank and shoot, just to clear up all misunderstanding

In my experience the A.I most of the time has some cavalry running around or archers/skirmishers in the back unloading at me so most of the time I keep my archers in the back thinning out enemy archers when the infantry is locked melee. If an enemy unit breaks and I do not have chasers I order my archers to shoot them in the back while I use the unit that got freed up to "roll up" the enemy line.

I dont see the opportunity will arise often to send my archers behind the enemy as they would be charged and vaporized by cavalry that would break off engagement with my cavalry/infantry just to charge them. This happens even though I keep my achers "safe". Enemy hvy cav or generals that are seeking to flank, manage to break off from spears or my cav and charge my archers occasionally.

I can see that Wizav85 tactics might work, but they are also dependable on the terrain.

[Tacitursa]

This is my favourite tactic use it playing as England very frequently.





Put your archers in the tree's infront of your army and to one side and make sure they have the little green tree which means they are hidden, Take a few spearmen aswell and place stakes.

Now the AI will never attack hidden units and they will always go for your front line like in the above. The enemy will only know your archers are there when u start firing. And thats the great part, AI never seems to know what to do about it. Sometimes there entire army turns around and starts heading towards you and you can charge your entire infantry line into the back of them.

Most of the time they just split up part of the army and so keep your cavalry on the same side as your ambush/flank like in my screenshot. My Spearmen are placed infront of my archers and stakes and my cavalry have a direct line straight to my spear men. If the AI send's any units that way they will engage my spear men then get charged from behind.

Wait untill the AI engage your main army fully and then start unloading flame arrows into there infantry line.


The other way u can flank requires abit of work. First you have to kill the AI cavalry then move your archers backed up with 2-3 spear units into a similar position. AI never use cavalry on a single flank and ussualy spread there cavalry on either side so this is relatively easy as you only have to kill half the AI cavalry on one side.

If you get lucky with battlemap and trees you can setup an ambush on both side's and create a gauntlet capped off at the other end by your infantry line.

[campbela]

Occasionally, usually when sallying from cities but also sometimes in the field if I have decent (but no stakes) archers. I always take spearmen or other infantry with them.

[boss_tay]

This is my favourite tactic use it playing as England very frequently.

Put your archers in the tree's infront of your army and to one side and make sure they have the little green tree which means they are hidden, Take a few spearmen aswell and place stakes.

If you get lucky with battlemap and trees you can setup an ambush on both side's and create a gauntlet capped off at the other end by your infantry line.

Hmm, Interesting Tactic, Wizav85.
However, I have some questions for this tactic:
1. If the AI army have more archers/skirmisher. They'll fire into your main infantry line first. If you start firing ar them from the bushes, they'll switch the target to your archer. Their infantry is on defensive mode and protect the archers from calvary charge.

2. How to kill their Calvary early (even in 1 flank), if they have superior Heavy calvary like the France Lancer, Fatimid's Khanzaki Guard or Mongol Heavy Lancer ? Normally, if AI have superior calvary, they'll advance slowly with their infantry. Right before the infantry engagement, they'll spead out and target our archers and calvary.

[Knight of Heaven]

Yes mine too i never do that. There is people who does that and kill tropps from behind with javs and archers. I only do that when i can. meaning i have a realu superior force and the enemy doesnt have any conter flank troops. (when its save) Wich btw these conditions dont come to often.

[RollingWave]

it's very effective if you can manage it. but also risky to run units with virtually no melee capcacity to that position.

it is however, what you should always do with horse archers, once the lines are engaged shoot into the back of the engaged units. when you hit from the back it completely negate their shield bonus. espically useful against those big shield units like Pavise spearman

[meese]

I usually don't but have, as of late with Scotland, had some rather grueling battles when it unfortunately did come down to using the archers I had (a rather funny assortment of noble highland archers, longbowmen and mercenary longbowmen). I suppose it really depends on what the enemies are - lightly armoured units I'll be more likely to enter melee with archers.

[YourOnlineHero]

Flanking with the archers works well for me (in the right situation) in rtw multiplayer.

It doesnt work so well in m2tw campaign... But it can work when you leave your archers shooting from the front, and move 2/3 of your army in flanking possition as the ai will always turn to face the bulk of your army. Thus many enemies are killed whilst reforming.

[Tacitursa]

Hmm, Interesting Tactic, Wizav85.
However, I have some questions for this tactic:
1. If the AI army have more archers/skirmisher. They'll fire into your main infantry line first. If you start firing ar them from the bushes, they'll switch the target to your archer. Their infantry is on defensive mode and protect the archers from calvary charge.
2. How to kill their Calvary early (even in 1 flank), if they have superior Heavy calvary like the France Lancer, Fatimid's Khanzaki Guard or Mongol Heavy Lancer ? Normally, if AI have superior calvary, they'll advance slowly with their infantry. Right before the infantry engagement, they'll spead out and target our archers and calvary.

1. They AI should never have more archers/skirmishers. I guess it depends which faction you play i only really play england and ive always got more archers. If the AI do start firing into my line ill pull them back untill there archer line is exactly where i want there infantry line to be. Then ill charge my front line foward which causes the AI to engage there infantry so having the AI army where u want it is relatively easy.

Also depending on the faction your playing against England should always have a big range advantage over other faction archers you should set your ambush at near maximum range. This means if the AI archers want to engage your archers they have to move away from the main army. That creates major problems for the AI.

2. Well i dont use archers in that stage of the game because its completely useless. Archers cant do anything to full plated armies and using them is just pointless. If you want though You can use Stake boxes for that. You can see my stake box tactic in this thread http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?p=6126256#post6126256 AI cavalry will never attack a stake box if there are other units outside of it. And if there arent any units outside of it they will just charge at the stake box and suicide. It will keep your archers completely safe against cavalry but thats about it.

In that stage of the game i use

9 Dismounted English knights
9 English knights
1-2 Generals

In RR/RC english get Pikes,musketeers and lancers now but i still prefer using the above it's a rape storm of AP and it completely dominates late plate armies.

[Badg3r]

only if i'm defending, other wise, it's just a case of infantry in to the front of theirs, kill their cavalry with heavier cavalry, flank with heavy cavalry.
the european factions can become a little dull after a while.

[Halbard]

When your archers can place stakes, the best thing to do is to make a circle of stakes, so you can defend yourself from cavalry, and place heavy infantry in the edge of the stake circle. send archers to the middle in lined formations , without fire arrows, (gives a higher firing rate).
if you do have cavalry, just send them away from your entrenchment, and charge enemy archers if needed.
this tactic has allowed me to beat battles against scotland like 2500-1000, during William Wallace invasion. lost little over 200 men. BTW, set defensive stance to the heavy infantry. and disable skirmish on archers.

[JorisofHolland]

Flanking with archers is possible, but only if you have beaten their cavalry or lured them far away. In that case, some voleys of flaming arrows rout most infantry units. Except the elite, the seem to fight to the death when fired on from behind.