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  1. #1
    Libertus
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    Default Alternative History discussion

    I was fooling around with MS Paint, GIMP, and a map of the world that I downloaded from Wikimedia Commons, and I came up with a map of an alternative Earth that is attached to this post.

    This world is dominated by three superpowers known as the Allies (blue), the Nubian Empire (yellow), and the Soviet Union (red). Territories not in control of any of the three superpowers are colored gray.

    The Allies control western Europe, Japan, Australasia, and most of North America. As their name implies, they are not one single nation so much as an alliance of nations, but they cooperate so closely together that they are regarded as one superpower nonetheless. The Allies claim democracy and capitalism as the ideologies that bind them together. They also possess the most advanced military technology of the three superpowers.

    The Nubian Empire controls Africa, part of the Middle East, and some Mediterranean countries. Descended from the ancient kingdom of Kush, they are by far the oldest of the superpowers, having existed for over three millennia. The Nubian Empire is ruled by a monarch, the Pharaoh, who is considered to be a god in the flesh. This belief that the Pharaoh they serve is divine gives the Nubian military an almost religious fanaticism unequaled in strength. The Nubians are also the economically most prosperous of the three powers, in part because of the natural wealth of the land they control as well as their long history of commerce with the outside world.

    The Soviet Union controls most of Asia and eastern Europe. The Soviets claim to be communistic, but they would be more accurately described as totalitarian, with the ruling party having control of almost every aspect of the society. The Soviets rule over by far the largest population of the three superpowers, which means that they can field larger armies.

    All three superpowers fight each other for control of the entire world, but each offers a different justification for their expansionism. The Allies claim to want to bring democracy and capitalism to the rest of the planet, the Nubians cite the authority of the gods, and the Soviets say that they want to bring about a global Revolution that will overthrow the capitalist and feudalist oppressors of working people the world over. Cynical observers argue that each faction just wants the same thing: total power over the planet.

    How possible is this alternative world? I showed it to some other people, and they told me that an autocratic regime like that of the Nubians couldn't survive for three thousand years. What are your thoughts on this?

  2. #2

    Default Re: Alternative History discussion

    You say the Soviet Union was by far the largest population, when in reality, the West has had much more. USA alone had the equivelant populace. Plus, the larger population does not mean the larger military.


  3. #3

    Default Re: Alternative History discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Sirota View Post
    You say the Soviet Union was by far the largest population, when in reality, the West has had much more. USA alone had the equivelant populace. Plus, the larger population does not mean the larger military.
    In this map USSR + China = a lot of people

    I guess this would work like the three powers in Orwell's 1984

  4. #4
    Libertus
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    Default Re: Alternative History discussion

    Here's a new version of my alternative Earth, this one without any uncolonized "gray" regions. I thought that each of the three superpowers would be too powerful for any non-superpower to successfully resist.

  5. #5
    Selim Yavuz's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: Alternative History discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Sirota View Post
    You say the Soviet Union was by far the largest population, when in reality, the West has had much more. USA alone had the equivelant populace. Plus, the larger population does not mean the larger military.
    According to that map, Soviets would be far more populous, since they have China and Indonesia, as well as Russia and Eastern Europe. Also, historically the US was always inferior to the USSR in population. It's something like twice the population of the current Russian Federation though.

    "My home policy: I wage war; my foreign policy: I wage war. All the time I wage war."- Georges Clemenceau
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  6. #6
    Manco's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Alternative History discussion

    What's your reasoning for putting Greece, Turkey and Iran in this Nubian kingdom? Culturally it doesn't seem right, or did you base it on a hypothetical Ottoman like expansion?

    As for an autocratic/theocratic Nubia being possible, I guess it depends a lot on the adaptability and inclusiveness of the religion.

  7. #7
    Barry Goldwater's Avatar Mr. Conservative
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    Default Re: Alternative History discussion

    How did the Nubians take over SE Europe? And I really see no way the Nubian empire could have held itself together unless they allowed each part of their empire some autonomy or are just as bad as the Soviets.

    Also, are all 3 of the superpowers armed with nukes, and if so which of them has the biggest and/or most advanced arsenal? After all, religious fanaticism & sheer numbers really don't matter when you're facing a country that's got army-destroying, city-shattering superweapons.

  8. #8
    D.B. Cooper's Avatar Tribunus
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    Default Re: Alternative History discussion

    Nubia doesn't make any sense to me. How can they still be worshipping Pharaohs while surrounded by modern industrial nations? How did they become a world superpower anyway?


  9. #9
    Georgy Zhukov's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Alternative History discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by D.B. Cooper View Post
    How is this history?
    I agree, why are Finland, Sweden and Norway a part of the Soviet Union? What is this map supposed to be a representation of?

  10. #10

    Default Re: Alternative History discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Goldwater View Post
    How did the Nubians take over SE Europe?
    It's only a short swim accross the Mediterranean. Much shorter than the south Atlantic...

  11. #11
    Barry Goldwater's Avatar Mr. Conservative
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    Default Re: Alternative History discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by ivan_the_terrible View Post
    It's only a short swim accross the Mediterranean. Much shorter than the south Atlantic...
    Yeah - I'm willing to accept the Africans' conquest of Greece, but most of South America is a whole other story, one that better have a brilliant explanation.

  12. #12
    Wolfcp11's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Alternative History discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Goldwater View Post
    Yeah - I'm willing to accept the Africans' conquest of Greece, but most of South America is a whole other story, one that better have a brilliant explanation.
    Obviously, the Phonecians perfected overseas travel in this world
    "Quotation is a serviceable substitute for wit." -Oscar Wilde

  13. #13

    Default Re: Alternative History discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Goldwater View Post
    Yeah - I'm willing to accept the Africans' conquest of Greece, but most of South America is a whole other story, one that better have a brilliant explanation.


    egyptian mummies have been found with traces of cocaine in their hair, if the Phatonic system never got conquered, and if you accept that the cocaine proves trade with SE, it seems possible that the Pharoahs knew about SE long before we did. That makes having a USA a stretch mind.

  14. #14
    Georgy Zhukov's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Alternative History discussion

    Why is Switzerland part of the Allies? Why is there suddenly a Nubian kingdom?

  15. #15
    Kiljan Arslan's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Alternative History discussion

    if your going to go into alternate history remember have a logic to what your developing because the more extreme changes you make the more unbelievable it becomes.
    according to exarch I am like
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Quote Originally Posted by Exarch View Post
    sure, the way fred phelps finds christianity too optimistic?

    Simple truths
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Did you know being born into wealth or marrying into wealth really shows you never did anything to earn it?
    btw having a sig telling people not to report you is hilarious.

  16. #16
    Libertus
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    Default Re: Alternative History discussion

    You guys raise very good questions. Honestly, the borders of the three superpowers were to a significant degree arbitrary. This was a stupid map to make and I'm sorry I wasted your guys' time with it.

    Though I must admit, I do like the idea of an African superpower...
    Last edited by Kahotep; October 27, 2009 at 09:44 PM.

  17. #17
    D.B. Cooper's Avatar Tribunus
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    Default Re: Alternative History discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Kahotep View Post
    You guys raise very good questions. Honestly, the borders of the three superpowers were to a significant degree arbitrary. This was a stupid map to make and I'm sorry I wasted your guys' time with it.

    Though I must admit, I do like the idea of an African superpower...
    Oh no no I like alternate history, don't get me wrong


  18. #18

    Default Re: Alternative History discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Kahotep View Post
    You guys raise very good questions. Honestly, the borders of the three superpowers were to a significant degree arbitrary. This was a stupid map to make and I'm sorry I wasted your guys' time with it.

    Though I must admit, I do like the idea of an African superpower...
    Then (in case you don't know them) I recommend Steven Barnes books 'Lions Blood' and 'Zulu Heart' set in an alternate 19th century world dominated by mostly Muslim Africans with the biggest power being a pharaonic (but Islamacized) Egypt. Whole premise works well due to the cultural detail.

    I think the toughest thing for me to process with this thread's alternate map is the existence of a 'Soviet Union' in a world with a 'Nubian Empire', you'd think a world history that had changed enough to create the latter would preclude the former. Also I'd imagine in that world, Australia and New Zealand would have been Asian rather than European (which I gather the 'Allies' more or less are).

  19. #19
    Kiljan Arslan's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Alternative History discussion

    well the likelihood of a subsaharan African superpower is rather low, just read Jared Diamond to see what I mean.
    according to exarch I am like
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Quote Originally Posted by Exarch View Post
    sure, the way fred phelps finds christianity too optimistic?

    Simple truths
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Did you know being born into wealth or marrying into wealth really shows you never did anything to earn it?
    btw having a sig telling people not to report you is hilarious.

  20. #20
    Barry Goldwater's Avatar Mr. Conservative
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    Default Re: Alternative History discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by justicar5
    egyptian mummies have been found with traces of cocaine in their hair, if the Phatonic system never got conquered, and if you accept that the cocaine proves trade with SE, it seems possible that the Pharoahs knew about SE long before we did. That makes having a USA a stretch mind.
    Wait what? The cocaine proves that the Pharaohs knew about Southeast Europe? You mean South America right?

    But seriously now, I agree - and also, the existence of a Pharaonic superpower next door messes up the chances of a (successful) Communist revolution in Russia (no intervention to restore the previous regime/annex the resource-rich country into the Nubian empire), which means no USSR either.

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