The Official List Of Immoralities

[Shams al-Ma'rifa]

So I've been into a few debates with atheists and other homosexual supporters, I must say I have really learned a lot. Now I have always viewed homosexuality as taboo but that's no really the exact subject at hand today.

I learned that in today's day and age, sexuality is not considered part of morality anymore... Nope, so what does morality consist of..? I have no idea, so I took the time to make this thread so that the members of TWC may decide on an agreed set of moral codes... Are you guys actually going to agree, no but I just enjoy watching two opposing parties ravage each other in an war of words...

I have read the "Is Western Civilization really seeing a major decline in morals?" thread and this is what I have read so far...

Immoral: Murder, stealing
Moral: Homosexuality: Coprophilia, adultery, everything else...

Ok well, dabble on...

[Morkonan]

..Ok well, dabble on...

Lying is immoral.

Using another's ignorance to one's own advantage is immoral. (That includes a large host of behaviors and acts.)

adultery

How the heck can anyone say that adultery is moral? WTF? That's ridiculous. How can a violation of trust for one's own benefit be "moral." How can lying by omission be moral? How can committing a selfish act with the knowledge that it will hurt another be moral? Who the heck would think adultery is "moral." Is there some rationalization for behavior there that can explain this?


(There are others. Thinking on how to phrase them atm..)

[Yaga Shu Ra]

Lying is immoral.

A question from Dirk, living in Holland, march 1943:
"While on my daily stroll through the park, an SS officer asked me if I know anyone keeping jewish people in hiding, I do, should I be honest?"

[Gaidin]

A question from Dirk, living in Holland, march 1943:
"An SS officer asked me if I know anyone keeping jewish people in hiding, I do, should I be honest?"

And moral relativity is proven a legitimate concept.

[Morkonan]

A question from Dirk, living in Holland, march 1943:
"While on my daily stroll through the park, an SS officer asked me if I know anyone keeping jewish people in hiding, I do, should I be honest?"

That officer is purposefully trying to exploit your good nature in order to commit a terrible travesty. In that case, no, your are not being immoral. You are protecting someone from injustice that uses potential "truth" as a tool to commit its offenses. This deals with the origin, the use and the intent regarding information that spurs immoral action. Because Dirk was powerless to affect any other solution, he had no avenue available to him other than lying. That is morally justifiable, in my opinion.

For instance, if a rapist asked you if a woman was at home and alone, without any chance for assistance, would you tell them "Yes." No, of course not. The proper and moral thing to do would be to see that they were apprehended before they could cause harm. (IF you knew their intent, that is, and were empowered.)

[Yaga Shu Ra]

That officer is purposefully trying to exploit your good nature in order to commit a terrible travesty. In that case, no, your are not being immoral. You are protecting someone from injustice that uses potential "truth" as a tool to commit its offenses. This deals with the origin, the use and the intent regarding information that spurs immoral action. Because Dirk was powerless to affect any other solution, he had no avenue available to him other than lying. That is morally justifiable, in my opinion.

He could refuse to answer, or answer truthfully; "yes, I do", but refuse to relinquish their identity, and suffer the consequences.

[Morkonan]

He could refuse to answer, or answer truthfully; "yes, I do", but refuse to relinquish their identity, and suffer the consequences.

All true.

Yet, what moral good could come of each situation? If he was tortured, would he reveal the identity? He could have also immediately overpowered the office and shot himself in the head but, I don't know how that would solve the problem of morality in this situation.

It is a difficult question. The only way I can examine it, unfortunately, either relies on situational ethics which, I am not normally very fond of, or the obvious intent of the questioner to do harm. It's not simply an honest, inane question but one who's answer causes harm so I do have to examine that but, I choose to base it on intent rather than dissecting it by result. Yes, that's a bit of a cop-out in avoiding situational ethics BUT, I place a large amount of importance on "intent."

In other words, in that particular case, it was a falsely posed question. The officer was really asking "Do you know someone who is hiding a person that I can capture, torture, abuse and kill?" The answer then is a moral "No."

[Claudius Gothicus]

Adultery has always proved to be harmful for your partner's feelings therefore it's not moral.

The same goes for all the sexual deviances that involve living beings that are not able/have rational capacity to say no.

As the more developed species of this living rock we have the responsibility to take care of it, avoid ing up.

[Shams al-Ma'rifa]

Lying is immoral.

Only when it's meant to do harm. Other times, telling white lies would be a perfectly noble thing to do... Of course there are times when white lies will leave a person ignorant of unwanted but important information and I don't know where I stand on that... I think intention is essentially important in regard to morality...

I'll use the Santa Claus example, is it immoral to lie to kids about Santa Claus?

[Gaidin]

I'll use the Santa Claus example, is it immoral to lie to kids about Santa Claus?

Depends on your point of view. I've seen parents perpetuate the myth. But then I've also seen parents let their children believe it as they will but once they ask the question they straight up tell it to them that he's not real. Brings up the question of whether not telling the truth is as bad as actually lying.

[Morkonan]

... I'll use the Santa Claus example, is it immoral to lie to kids about Santa Claus?

I think it is OK to "pretend" for the purposes of enjoyment. Fiction is a form of lying.

But, you raise a good point. Is it lying and is it immoral?

I'll have to think on it a bit to formalize a response. Thanks for that question though!

[Sir Winston Churchill]

How the heck can anyone say that adultery is moral? WTF? That's ridiculous. How can a violation of trust for one's own benefit be "moral." How can lying by omission be moral? How can committing a selfish act with the knowledge that it will hurt another be moral? Who the heck would think adultery is "moral." Is there some rationalization for behavior there that can explain this?


(There are others. Thinking on how to phrase them atm..)

Dude just look at my thread that dealt with if Adultery should be illegal or not. It's quite obvious that the majority of TWC goers, and just by the overall attitude of the posts, believe that adultery is totally not immoral.

I just think it's all gone taboo with the world. I can hardly stand this time and era, even past my religious views I think the world is in the gutter.

In my observation: Moral: Everything
Immoral: Nothing

[Morkonan]

Dude just look at my thread that dealt with if Adultery should be illegal or not. It's quite obvious that the majority of TWC goers, and just by the overall attitude of the posts, believe that adultery is totally not immoral.

And, I'm supposed to jump off the bridge with everyone else because...?

I happen to believe they are all wrong. Adultery is immoral. That's just the way it is. Are there exceptions? No. But, are there situations where it is not immoral yet the person is still legally married? Yes.

I happen to believe that it definitely qualifies as being illegal and 23 states in the United States happen to agree with that as well.

I just think it's all gone taboo with the world. I can hardly stand this time and era, even past my religious views I think the world is in the gutter. In my observation: Moral: Everything Immoral: Nothing

Then, you are content to wallow in the gutter?

Of what use is defining "Morality" if everything possible is moral to you? Then, "morality" becomes a non-word for you. It means nothing. You have no "morals." That is a sad way to live man.. It doesn't have to be that way.

If you have a principle you believe in then you stand up for that principle no matter what the odds are or what other people have to say. You don't have to be belicose about it but you must be true to yourself and that does not mean that your morality must be subject to the whims and fancies of the masses. Use your heart and your mind, not your hubris or personal desire for acceptance dealing with something as critical as one's own moral convictions!

[Sir Winston Churchill]

And, I'm supposed to jump off the bridge with everyone else because...?

I happen to believe they are all wrong. Adultery is immoral. That's just the way it is. Are there exceptions? No. But, are there situations where it is not immoral yet the person is still legally married? Yes.

I happen to believe that it definitely qualifies as being illegal and 23 states in the United States happen to agree with that as well.



Then, you are content to wallow in the gutter?

Of what use is defining "Morality" if everything possible is moral to you? Then, "morality" becomes a non-word for you. It means nothing. You have no "morals." That is a sad way to live man.. It doesn't have to be that way.

If you have a principle you believe in then you stand up for that principle no matter what the odds are or what other people have to say. You don't have to be belicose about it but you must be true to yourself and that does not mean that your morality must be subject to the whims and fancies of the masses. Use your heart and your mind, not your hubris or personal desire for acceptance dealing with something as critical as one's own moral convictions!

No you're not, and I appreciate you don't.

When I said observation, I didn't mean my own. I'm just saying that's what most people think.

[Morkonan]

No you're not, and I appreciate you don't.

When I said observation, I didn't mean my own. I'm just saying that's what most people think.

Understood. Sorry if I misinterpreted your post. I was up quite late and a bit groggy.

Immoral yes. Illegal hell no. It is nobody's business what you do as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else. And if one was to make the claim that there is emotional pain, then there is compensation.

For the purposes of this thread, "Immoralities" then we agree completely.

For the illegal side, in another thread, we'd have to agree to disagree.

(Normally, the "Alienation of Affection" type of clause is used in divorces arising from adultery to add an award of damages, IIRC.)

[justicar5]

Dude just look at my thread that dealt with if Adultery should be illegal or not. It's quite obvious that the majority of TWC goers, and just by the overall attitude of the posts, believe that adultery is totally not immoral.

I just think it's all gone taboo with the world. I can hardly stand this time and era, even past my religious views I think the world is in the gutter.

In my observation: Moral: Everything
Immoral: Nothing

you asked should it be illegal, that is an entirely different question from is it moral.

[Fiyenyaa]

Moral: Homosexuality: Coprophilia, adultery, everything else...

These things are neither moral nor immoral - infact I would say that adultery was immoral in 95% of circumstances.
Homosexuality isn't inherently good or evil, it just is. There are also potentially thousands of things that don't fit into this black-and-white wrong-or-right mentality. Morality is usually divided into shades of gray in the real world.

[Arch-hereticK]

We probably should perpetaute the myth of moral absolutinism. If for nothing else; the weak and stupid who can't figure out morality for themselves should we therefore pretend that there are moral absolutes just to keep them in line?

[Shams al-Ma'rifa]

We probably should perpetaute the myth of moral absolutinism. If for nothing else; the weak and stupid who can't figure out morality for themselves should we therefore pretend that there are moral absolutes just to keep them in line?

Yes, with exceptions of course.

infact I would say that adultery was immoral in 95% of circumstances

What's the other 5%?

[Fiyenyaa]

What's the other 5%?

People trapped in an unhappy marriage? Divorce isn't available for everyone, you know.