Battle dynamics

[afp2]

While the longer battles are nicer, I think the battle strategy should play the major role in winning a fight. There were many cases along history where a smaller army massacrated a much bigger army. It looks like battles in RS1.6 are way too "balanced", like a 5:3 power ratio will lead to a 3:5 casualities or something.

What I noticed is that an encircled unit breaks a bit too hard. This may be a solution to the problem and also increase the battle dynamics. Flanking maneuvers should be more powerfull. In the picture bellow, the enncircled unit resisted for long minutes, even if they were "naked fanatics" the casualities speed was way too low...

Is there a configuration file to fix it or this only depends on attack / defense / morale units parameters? Its only me who noticed this or its only because I'm so early in the campaign and later things fix themselves?

[Alavaria]

Yes, in general, there's a bit of a mismatch between melee attack and defense, so it takes long for anything to die. Also, an encircled unit sometimes has men on all side turn around so that they are facing outwards, thus they fight well in melee. Especially if you push them into a dense formation, they work better.

I suggest using ranged units, on the right side of the enemy where their shields can't help them. Archers are a good choice. You'll need troops to defend them, of course. There's a different mismatch with ranged attack and armor >___> Get some experienced and upgraded archers, 20 attack or so. Most units have about 14 armor, give or take a few points. About 4-5 volleys into the unshielded side at close range will devastate even a heavily armored unit and make it rout.

You need to have the target properly "stuck" on something, preferably expendible infantry with large shields. Cavalry are liable to simply run off, however infantry will probably stick to your anvil until you've shot them off. If you have a long line, simply make start from your left flank (the enemy's right flank) and keep your unit of archers moving down the line. Since the enemy are quite firmly stuck to your line, it is safe to move the archers until they're rather close to the unit (eg: a length of 5 men away). Then simply shoot them point-blank where the shields don't help them.

With unilts like militia, 3 volleys might break them. For really heavily armored ones (spartans/ armored hoplites) that have upgraded armor it could take 6+ volleys - but it kills them far faster than anything except possibly a charge. Sometimes a little better - however you don't need space to build up a charge.

Look at the battle in this update. Specifically the pictures in the spoiler "tone would recognize this"


Yes, those hoplites are modded, to remove their Macedonian phalanx and make them overhand. The AI does better with this arrangement, as it is harder to flank tham, etc. However, if it's marching a unit up my frontline, the right side will always be facing my archers, whatever the unit may be. Furthermore, the AI has every reason to expect it will break the militia, with superior troops and a +7 bonus.

Hehe~

I think I maybe lost 20/240 militia. Mostly due to friendly fire (not so friendly). The enemy hits, and starts fighting (they'll pull out their spears and form up) however, because melee attack is so low compared to melee defence, they hardly kill anyone in the time it takes for them to take enough arrows. My archers there had 16 attack (14 base + 2 exp), those hoplites have 6 armor (linothorax).

[afp2]

Thank you very much Alavaria, I also noticed that sometimes they face backward. I prefere to avoid to use experienced archers, as I consider they are already overpowered along all war games for gameplay reasons (I guess they are many things not considered correctly, like exaustion, scaled battlefield related to a 200m arrow range, precision, shields etc).

I dont know if I figured out correctly but I think the casualities rate of the encircled unit is pretty much the same as they were fighting one side only. I could find ways to break them in the end, I just wonder if there is a way to fix this through config files but I guess its more like in the game engine...

[Theoroshia]

You should definitely upload that overhand hoplite file Alavaria; I'm too lazy to change it myself.

[Alavaria]

You should definitely upload that overhand hoplite file Alavaria; I'm too lazy to change it myself.

Indeed, it's only a small change in the EDU and descr_model battle. However, I also added "Syracusean Levy Hoplites" (cheaper, even worse clone of the militia hoplite) and changed other things ...

I added swords to the militia hoplites (ok, should be knives/daggers) because I realized they were too powerful vs horsemen since they had their spear+spear bonus.

I prefere to avoid to use experienced archers, as I consider they are already overpowered along all war games for gameplay reasons (I guess they are many things not considered correctly, like exaustion, scaled battlefield related to a 200m arrow range, precision, shields etc).

Basic greek archers have 14 attack, that's good. Cretans etc have 6.

That and up to +3 from artemis (+2 is quick to get), +2 from foundry, +2 from Hephaestus (+1 is easy to get), even inexperienced archers can turn into slaughter machines.

[afp2]

That and up to +3 from artemis (+2 is quick to get), +2 from foundry, +2 from Hephaestus (+1 is easy to get), even inexperienced archers can turn into slaughter machines.

Then I may need to fix that too before starting a new game... I don't want them to act like machine gunners...

So no solution to make surrounded units break easier, through config files, right?

[Alavaria]

Well, if you simply decrease everyone's defense skill, melee fighting will result in more kills.

However, you can't stop men from turning if someone is stabbing them in the back. Even troops in phalanx will break formation if they're surrounded and under attack from all sides.

Anyway, I find it great.
14 attack
+3 Artemis Pantheon
+2 Foundry
+2 Hephaestus Pantheon
+2 (exp) Siege Engineer
+1 (exp) Ludus Magna
+2 (exp) Ares Pantheon

gives you 26 attack. And you can turn out 9 units in a turn, spam everyone to death in a hail of ridiculously damaging missiles.

More reasonably, with 3 units of archers @ 26 attack, you can kill an entire enemy stack by constantly pinning them to something and shooting them off. However, even the basic 14 attack is pretty good.

[afp2]

More reasonably, with 3 units of archers @ 26 attack, you can kill an entire enemy stack by constantly pinning them to something and shooting them off. However, even the basic 14 attack is pretty good.

That's way too unbalanced, if the history was like that, armies were archers only... romans didn't even have lot of archers and they were really knew what they were doing.
I think reducing missles range may be a solution to this, as 150-200m (the common range that archers use to act) was a pretty risky business when cavalry was close. In game they act like artilery.

As you said, upgrades can almost double their attack... is there a way to avoid this? Like forbidding upgrades for missiles or something?

[Alavaria]

That's way too unbalanced, if the history was like that, armies were archers only... romans didn't even have lot of archers and they were really knew what they were doing.
I think reducing missles range may be a solution to this, as 150-200m (the common range that archers use to act) was a pretty risky business when cavalry was close. In game they act like artilery.

As you said, upgrades can almost double their attack... is there a way to avoid this? Like forbidding upgrades for missiles or something?

No, I have 3 units of archers, and a general. Everyone else (all the army) is something like militia hoplites.

You don't need an army of archers, that's brittle. You need a lot of anvils (more like wooden blocks) to hold the enemy. Shooting enemies off your shield wall doesn't need many men.

In fact, as you can see, my men are nearly point-blank. If you reduced their range to that of javelins, it'd still be long enough that the enemies don't turn to face them (and this leave their right side exposed to missile fire).

Nah, you'll have to go through the code and remove all +ranged attack bonuses and +experience bonuses. Manually.

Probably using search would help. However, I've had troops easily from 0 experience get to up to 6+ experience. The fact that experience upgrades archer attack is of course hardcoded.

That's because the Romans didn't have a Pantheon of Hephaestus, duh. If they did they would've gotten the +2 bonus.

Don't they have vulcan or something? Anyway, you can use mercenary archers - its pretty safe for them. Alternatively, velites are good too (javelins have higher attack, like 18 base).

Of course, all the proper romans would not be amused to see their hastati/principe/trarii turn into blocks for holding the enemy, while the velites go from skirmishers to basically killing or routing whole armies because they were capable of firing into the enemy's side. The Roman infantry are stronger than militia hoplites though, so having 10+ units of velites (+ infantry) is not as brittle as having 7 unit of greek archers (+ militia). Also, each Roman hastati/principes/legionary has two pila - a high attack value and armor piercing missile. That can do a lot of damage, PLUS they can throw and then make way for the velites, protecting them.

[Theoroshia]

That's because the Romans didn't have a Pantheon of Hephaestus, duh. If they did they would've gotten the +2 bonus.

[MarcusTullius]

That's because the Romans didn't have a Pantheon of Hephaestus, duh. If they did they would've gotten the +2 bonus.

Genius

[afp2]

That's because the Romans didn't have a Pantheon of Hephaestus, duh. If they did they would've gotten the +2 bonus.

)

Nah, you'll have to go through the code and remove all +ranged attack bonuses and +experience bonuses. Manually.

I will probably do this as I intend to perform some small changes to adapt the game to my taste before starting a new one. Its about "export_descr_unit.txt", right? I should search for missles units or something I guess.
What I really look for is to obtain intense strategic battles, somehow realistic if possible. I'm trying to avoid exploits like building a team of 7-8 archers and destroy half the enemy army ... in RS 1.6 you can abuse the landscape with archers even more...

[Alavaria]

no, it's the Export_Descr_Buildings
specifically, the bonuses that the buildings I mentioned give

In any case the AI tends not to build or use archers well. It definitely won't flank on a units right side, and certainly not go to the effort of stacking +experience +attack on its archers. Only the player would coordinate enough to get all those bonuses.

Militia hoplites are very good against heavy cavalry, as they don't have swords, and as such never lose the bonuses related to their spears. I gave them swords, and now they're pretty bad against say generals. Also, the overhand hoplites I modded are much better for AI use (it doesn't use phalanx well)

[Theoroshia]

Also, the overhand hoplites I modded are much better for AI use (it doesn't use phalanx well)

Got around to making them overhand, and I gotta say the AI uses them a lot better as well.

[afp2]

One more question, I've read somewhere that RS1.6 has some troubles with BI exe, is it ok with Alexander executable? The game starts and seems to be ok so far.

[Alavaria]

I am running it fine on BI.

It should work on Alex, as well.