George Orwell must be rolling in his grave.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/25/wo...llance.html?hp
I knew Britain had the most security cameras in the world but this is rediculous. They might as well build three giant fortress's named The ministry of truth, the ministry of peace and the ministry of love then pass an act making thought crime illegal and get it over with.
Dux Limitis
Re: George Orwell must be rolling in his grave.
Thought crimes are already illegal in Britain, as part of the anti-terror act.Originally Posted by byzantine
Thinking about becoming a terrorist is enough to get arrested and jailed for a very long time, even if you haven't made any real preparations yet (which is a requirement for prosecution in most countries).
Re: George Orwell must be rolling in his grave.
It would be interesting to hear what natives think of the surveillance. Do you think Tony Blair's neighborhood has any cameras?
Comes Rei Militaris
Re: George Orwell must be rolling in his grave.
...
And how could they prove you think of becoming a terrorist? Because in your drunkeness told your buddies "I hate that! I'll blow up her shop!" ?
alhoon is not a member of the infamous Hoons: a (fictional) nazi-sympathizer KKK clan. Of course, no Hoon would openly admit affiliation to the uninitiated.
"Angry Uncle Gordon" describes me well.
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Artifex
Re: George Orwell must be rolling in his grave.
No "thoughtcrimes" so far as I can tell. UK of 2009 is NOT an Orwellian society....
And how could they prove you think of becoming a terrorist? Because in your drunkeness told your buddies "I hate that
Let's take that case of that woman who was thought to be using a false adress to get her daughter enrolled to a school of her choice.
Charges were not proven, she goes to court to protest the invasion of her privacy. The court makes a ruling. Police abides by it and alters its own internal rules so as not to make the same mistake again, meaning that in a similar or identical case a different course of action will be followed.
Which leaves everyday citizens the right to step up and say what they perceive is wrong. Plain simple words will do, I think, or if they are not enough, through justice, as Ms Paton did.
I do admit that those posters are hilarious. +rep for posting them.
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Re: George Orwell must be rolling in his grave.
What a load of crapola. Give us all an example of those convicted of the 'thought crimes' in the UK.
Re: George Orwell must be rolling in his grave.
Wow. I can see this happening in America in the next few years.
Praefectus
Re: George Orwell must be rolling in his grave.
It already has. Will just take awhile longer before most become agitated about it since there is so much more to cover with the cams.
"oooh a gypsy wind is blowing warm tonight, sky is starlit and the time is right. Now you're telling me you have to go...before you do there's something you should know." - Bob Seger
Freedom is the distance between church and state.
Decanus
Re: George Orwell must be rolling in his grave.
Fortunetly the act has already been declared incompatible with EU law so it should soon be replaced by a new act, the majority of Judges follow the principles of Natural Justice rather then applying the doctrine of the Literal Rule when ruling on a derogatory "opt out" order and a large selection of MPs have also consistently voted against the act, all be it they only managed to force amendments.
And the example is a misuse of powers, but I don't think it is a sign of an Oceanian like dictatorship taking over.
The new British Supreme Court moved into a new building not two weeks ago, moving the Judiciary branch of Government out of the Legislative, improving the independence of said branch, Judicial appointments have also been opened up over the past thirty years, and sees a much wider range of candidates then it did in the 1970s.
The Freedom of Information Act and the fact that you can legally request all images of you, took by CCTV, to be handed over to you is a right we all have.
Alas, I see no threads.
Campidoctor
Re: George Orwell must be rolling in his grave.
Why does everyone have a problem with surveillance? The government are a bunch of bumbling morons. What the hell are they going to do, steal your DNA and make a clone army? If you're not doing anything wrong, what do you have to fear?
That's a genuine question, btw. Not just stirring.
Decanus
Re: George Orwell must be rolling in his grave.
Precisely.
Although be prepared to face a string of "If they treat me like a criminal, why don't I just become one?!" arguments.
Comes Limitis
Re: George Orwell must be rolling in his grave.
The means for oppression are there, now all you need is one charming prick to use it the right way and things will go down hill quickly. It would be far to easy for someone to take advantage of that kind of power. Not to mention privacy, even when you aren't breaking the law there is some stuff you just don't want people to see or the fact that most people don't being watched all the time.
That's just what I can tell with a glancing look anyways.
Campidoctor
Re: George Orwell must be rolling in his grave.
I was thinking more along the lines of roadside CCTV &c than these petty wastes of money, like surveying people's refuse. B
Besides, what power? If the government could see into your home, then that would be an issue. But what could you possibly have private which you conduct outside your home?
Citizen
Re: George Orwell must be rolling in his grave.
OK, I'll answer your question:
There ya go.
How would you like it if you were under surveillance by bumbling morons who had the authority to do whatever it is they felt like without having to answer for it? Not good, right?
I know "Rights" are handled a bit differently in the UK than in the US. However, we do have them and they are explicit. The Government is limited by what it can do and expressly recognizes these Rights as preexisting and inviolate. Only in a very, very, very few and precisely laid out instances can these Rights be suspended.
However, a lot of the latest legislation has come close to changing that. Specifically, various new privacy laws and Homeland Security issues have weakened the concept of inviolate Rights. So, we have to be very wary of legislation these days or, we could quickly end up in the same boat as that poor gradeschooler mother.
Foederatus
Re: George Orwell must be rolling in his grave.
A more rational question would be:
If I am not doing anything wrong, why should the government keep track of me?
Remember to smile
Re: George Orwell must be rolling in his grave.
When US officials were given the right* to listen in on soliders in Iraq, 90% of it was listning ( tapping ) the wire* back home* was sexual conversations. Do I blame them? No, not really. Gues what, we Are humans. I think this case is plain and simple wrong. It's just wrong.
Last edited by Kjertesvein; October 25, 2009 at 05:26 PM. Reason: :wub: ipod spell machine FAIL's are corrected on a IBM computer. Thanks to IBM
Thorolf was thus armed. Then Thorolf became so furious that he cast his shield on his back, and, grasping his halberd with both hands, bounded forward dealing cut and thrust on either side. Men sprang away from him both ways, but he slew many. Thus he cleared the way forward to earl Hring's standard, and then nothing could stop him. He slew the man who bore the earl's standard, and cut down the standard-pole. After that he lunged with his halberd at the earl's breast, driving it right through mail and body, so that it came out at the shoulders; and he lifted him up on the halberd over his head, and planted the butt-end in the ground. There on the weapon the earl breathed out his life in sight of all, both friends and foes. [...] 53, Egil's Saga- The pranks played on the knight Jean de Joinville, 1249, 7th crusade.I must tell you here of some amusing tricks the Comte d'Eu played on us. I had made a sort of house for myself in which my knights and I used to eat, sitting so as to get the light from the door, which, as it happened, faced the Comte d'Eu's quarters. The count, who was a very ingenious fellow, had rigged up a miniature ballistic machine with which he could throw stones into my tent. He would watch us as we were having our meal, adjust his machine to suit the length of our table, and then let fly at us, breaking our pots and glasses.
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Re: George Orwell must be rolling in his grave.
If you assume that government is infallible then you're correct. But there has never been a bunch of bandits and murderers as dangerous as the government.
Praefectus
Re: George Orwell must be rolling in his grave.
It's a matter of principal, I think. Surveilance probably reduces crime overall, if anything. But there surely is a point where the majority would feel so uncomfortable being watched, that they'd choose to forgo (some of) the benefits...
Decanus
Re: George Orwell must be rolling in his grave.
i fear living in a police state
Decanus
Re: George Orwell must be rolling in his grave.
As long as you don't travel back in time, you should be fine in Britain.
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