RAF or Luftwaffe?

[tonymurphy1888]

Me and were friend were having a disscussion about the RAF and the Luftwaffe we both agree that the British pilot's were better but we disagree on the hardware i say the German hardware was better as in the Messerschmitt and he thinks the Brits as in the Spit fire so i was wondering what you think?

[Danny_K_1]

I assume you mean the ME 109?

The Spitfire gets my vote.

[Barry Ferguson]

The Spitfire was the only allied fighter to remain in prodcution form 1939-45. That says a lot. It was supremely adaptable. And in some respects, the Mk I did outclass the Messerschmit

[Lance-Corporal Jones]

Spitfire all the way.

Now, if that were the Focke-Wulf Fw 190 instead of the Me...

[Rt. Hon. Gentleman]

Definitely the Spit. The Bf109 did not compete with the Spit after a while. The Focke-Wulf 190A (Butcher-Bird) became the Spit's chief cause for concern, and then the ME262 jet. Still, arguably a Spitfire mk IX is certainly the most manoueverable fighter of the war. The new two-stage supercharger on that mark meant it could operate at any ceiling the Luftwaffe chose, unlike the earlier mk V.

Still, I guarantee their'll be an American on the board saying "Why isn't the P51 Mustang on here?" in 5,4,3,2,1...

[tonymurphy1888]

Definitely the Spit. The Bf109 did not compete with the Spit after a while. The Focke-Wulf 190A (Butcher-Bird) became the Spit's chief cause for concern, and then the ME262 jet. Still, arguably a Spitfire mk IX is certainly the most manoueverable fighter of the war. The new two-stage supercharger on that mark meant it could operate at any ceiling the Luftwaffe chose, unlike the earlier mk V.

Still, I guarantee their'll be an American on the board saying "Why isn't the P51 Mustang on here?" in 5,4,3,2,1...

And I will tell him we weren't talking about America we so there was no need to bring it up

Far too simplistic.

First of all, what time period? This would affect the pilot training levels and the aircraft models and types in use. For example, in 1944 Luftwaffe fighter pilots went into action with little more than 130 hours total flight and usually no more than 25 hours in operational aircraft – Allied pilots had well over 400 hours flight time, including over 100 in operational aircraft. And for an example of the latter point, in Autumn 1941 the Focke-Wulf 190 emerged, and immediately proved it's supremacy over the RAF's best available fighter, the Spitfire Mk. V.

Secondly, what Theatre? Over Britain? Over France? Over Germany? Over the Northern Desert? Over Tunisia? Italy?

Seriously, the details in this question matter if you want an answer that will be worth a damn.

I just want to know about the planes themselves not the quality of the pilot, just the hardware it self, as for the year earlyer models round about the summer and autum of 1940

Sorry bout ther double post.

[Holger Danske]

Still, I guarantee their'll be an American on the board saying "Why isn't the P51 Mustang on here?" in 5,4,3,2,1...

Nevermind it was a British engine that actually made the P-51 a great plane in the first place...

Anyway the Focke-Wulf 190 is surely worth a mention and the BF-109 was still a formidible fighter despite it's shortcomings (it's landing gear and limited combat range)

[Spartacus the Irish]

Me and were friend were having a disscussion about the RAF and the Luftwaffe we both agree that the British pilot's were better but we disagree on the hardware i say the German hardware was better as in the Messerschmitt and he thinks the Brits as in the Spit fire so i was wondering what you think?

Far too simplistic.

First of all, what time period? This would affect the pilot training levels and the aircraft models and types in use. For example, in 1944 Luftwaffe fighter pilots went into action with little more than 130 hours total flight and usually no more than 25 hours in operational aircraft – Allied pilots had well over 400 hours flight time, including over 100 in operational aircraft. And for an example of the latter point, in Autumn 1941 the Focke-Wulf 190 emerged, and immediately proved it's supremacy over the RAF's best available fighter, the Spitfire Mk. V.

Secondly, what Theatre? Over Britain? Over France? Over Germany? Over the Northern Desert? Over Tunisia? Italy?

Seriously, the details in this question matter if you want an answer that will be worth a damn.

[Spartacus the Irish]

I just want to know about the planes themselves not the quality of the pilot, just the hardware it self, as for the year earlyer models round about the summer and autum of 1940

Well okay then. I'll be quick, I'm leaving to meet my beau.

The Me109 was incomparable (in the early war) in the vertical plane. With fuel injection, the 109 pilot could push the stick forward, and therefore could dive into negative-g without the engine cutting out, as happened to gravity-fed carburettors in British aircraft. The British aircraft would have to roll and dive rather than simply nosing over; thus losing valuable seconds and probably the diving German aircraft also.

[Kissaki]

we both agree that the British pilot's were better

The top scoring British ace of WWII was James Edgar Johnson, with 38 confirmed kills. The top scoring German ace was Erich Alfred "Bubi" Hartmann, with 352 confirmed kills. There are several hundred German aces with more than 38 confirmed kills. Now, a lot of this has to do with the fact that the Germans simply faced more enemies, and also the fact that German pilots were allowed very little respite between missions, much less than Allied pilots.

On the other hand, when British pilots defended Britain, they had the benefit of short supply lines and could land and refit quickly. German fighter pilots, however, had 5-10 minutes worth of fuel to waste over Blighty before having to turn around. I still say the scale is heavier on the German side when it comes to the best pilots.

[tonymurphy1888]

The top scoring British ace of WWII was James Edgar Johnson, with 38 confirmed kills. The top scoring German ace was Erich Alfred "Bubi" Hartmann, with 352 confirmed kills. There are several hundred German aces with more than 38 confirmed kills. Now, a lot of this has to do with the fact that the Germans simply faced more enemies, and also the fact that German pilots were allowed very little respite between missions, much less than Allied pilots.

On the other hand, when British pilots defended Britain, they had the benefit of short supply lines and could land and refit quickly. German fighter pilots, however, had 5-10 minutes worth of fuel to waste over Blighty before having to turn around. I still say the scale is heavier on the German side when it comes to the best pilots.

These are the stas of two individuals that dosen't make the piolets better the RAF were a unit, a team

[Kissaki]

These are the stas of two individuals that dosen't make the piolets better the RAF were a unit, a team

Are the hundreds of Luftwaffe pilots with more than 38 kills also only two individuals? And how were the Luftwaffe pilots NOT a team? It was their specialty, for crying out loud.

Allied pilots who showed skill, ability and leadership were pulle out of their frontline units ato become training instructors.

Exactly.

Bear in mind than Johnnie Johnson flew 515 total sorties, whilst Hartmann flew 1404 combat sorties - i.e. interceptor, Frei Jagd, basically being a fighter. Johnson's totals include recce, freight and and patrol flights.

And in 1400 missions, Hartmann never lost a wingman. That's quite something.

If we look at who averaged the most kills per mission, the prize would go to Gunther Scheel, who scored 71 victories in the 70 missions he flew.

Twenty minutes.

According to Adolf Galland, five minutes over London.

but her tactics fostered this. Marseille was an undoubtedly good shot and pilot, but the rest pof his staffeln existed solely to accompany and protect him whilst he scored kills.

And this was a failing in Marseilles' command. It was not the norm.

Thus when Marseille died, his staffeln struggled - like a sports team whose only star player, the one whom all their tactics and plays revolve around, has left.

The biggest reason why his Staffeln struggled was likely low morale, but it is obvious that Marseilles failed to train the pilots under him sufficiently.

Germany had exceptional pilots, but the like her army, these few greats masked a sea of mediocrity and incompetence regarding the average German pilot.

This is simply untrue, for both the Luftwaffe and the Wehrmacht. Certainly, toward the latter years of the war, you see the tide of mediocrity and in some cases incompetence. But when you say "these few", this is patently false. There were only two pilots in the whole war who scored over 300 victories - both German. There were 13 who scored between 200-300, all German. I can't even be bothered to count the German pilots who scored more than 100. Oh, I know many Japanese pilots boasted hundreds of kills, but the Japanese were incorrigible bragharts.

In the first years of the war, Germany had excellent training for all branches of her military. So it is equally fair to speak of a "sea of excellence" as it is to speak of a "sea of mediocrity and incompetence". Both statements, really, are stretching the truth quite a bit.

[Spartacus the Irish]

The top scoring British ace of WWII was James Edgar Johnson, with 38 confirmed kills. The top scoring German ace was Erich Alfred "Bubi" Hartmann, with 352 confirmed kills. There are several hundred German aces with more than 38 confirmed kills. Now, a lot of this has to do with the fact that the Germans simply faced more enemies, and also the fact that German pilots were allowed very little respite between missions, much less than Allied pilots.

Allied pilots who showed skill, ability and leadership were pulle out of their frontline units ato become training instructors. Bear in mind than Johnnie Johnson flew 515 total sorties, whilst Hartmann flew 1404 combat sorties - i.e. interceptor, Frei Jagd, basically being a fighter. Johnson's totals include recce, freight and and patrol flights. I don't have the number of Hartmann's total sorties.

It sounds cliche but the experience that Johnson passed on to hundreds of trainee pilots was, in my opinion, of far more worth than the the hundreds of planes that Hartmann shot down (I know Hartmann was on the Eastern Front and thus this example is not directly transferable, but you can see my point). Air combat consists of hunters and their prey. The Luftwfafe consisted of a few exceptional hunters, but a large mass of prey (i.e. poor pilots, especially as the war progressed).

On the other hand, when British pilots defended Britain, they had the benefit of short supply lines and could land and refit quickly. German fighter pilots, however, had 5-10 minutes worth of fuel to waste over Blighty before having to turn around. I still say the scale is heavier on the German side when it comes to the best pilots.

Twenty minutes. And the Britih pilots often had to land/take-off whilst being bombed/strafed. But I would agree that Germany produced exceptional pilots - but her tactics fostered this. Marseille was an undoubtedly good shot and pilot, but the rest pof his staffeln existed solely to accompany and protect him whilst he scored kills. Thus when Marseille died, his staffeln struggled - like a sports team whose only star player, the one whom all their tactics and plays revolve around, has left.

Germany had exceptional pilots, but the like her army, these few greats masked a sea of mediocrity and incompetence regarding the average German pilot.

EDIT:
And 'Pat' Pattle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marmaduke_Pattle) was probably the highest scoring British ace of the war; his record stands at between 27-44, in nine months of conflict. During the British retreat from Greece RAF records were destroyed, thus the inability to prove this. A bloody fine pilot, and a thoroughly interesting autobiography - I believe it is Ace of Aces byE.C.R Baker.

[René Artois]

The top scoring British ace of WWII was James Edgar Johnson, with 38 confirmed kills. The top scoring German ace was Erich Alfred "Bubi" Hartmann, with 352 confirmed kills. There are several hundred German aces with more than 38 confirmed kills. Now, a lot of this has to do with the fact that the Germans simply faced more enemies, and also the fact that German pilots were allowed very little respite between missions, much less than Allied pilots.

On the other hand, when British pilots defended Britain, they had the benefit of short supply lines and could land and refit quickly. German fighter pilots, however, had 5-10 minutes worth of fuel to waste over Blighty before having to turn around. I still say the scale is heavier on the German side when it comes to the best pilots.

Don't forget that towards the mid/end of the war, the allies were sending hundreds of bomber planes to bomb Germany daily, and over Germany they would have been without fighter cover (mid-war anyway) so it was easier for Germans to shoot down more allied planes than vice-versa.

As for your respite argument, i don't know exact figures of erm... respite time, but during the Battle of Britain, the British pilots had hardly any time to rest between missions, less than the Germans. In fact, that is one of the causes of alot of downed pilots, who simply fell asleep for a brief second or weren't as aware as they should have been.

[Lysimachos11]

Don't forget that towards the mid/end of the war, the allies were sending hundreds of bomber planes to bomb Germany daily, and over Germany they would have been without fighter cover (mid-war anyway) so it was easier for Germans to shoot down more allied planes than vice-versa.

As for your respite argument, i don't know exact figures of erm... respite time, but during the Battle of Britain, the British pilots had hardly any time to rest between missions, less than the Germans. In fact, that is one of the causes of alot of downed pilots, who simply fell asleep for a brief second or weren't as aware as they should have been.

Yeah, cause at some instances less than 40 German fighters had to face air armadas of 800 or more Allied bombers and fighters. That really gave the Germans the advantage...

What I find unfair towards the Germans is that they supposedly made a mistake in keeping their experts flying. The way I see it, there was, certainly in the later stages of the war, only enough fuel and operational aircraft available to let a fraction of the Luftwaffe take to the air. Logical that the best of the best were sent out. Also, while the allies could retreat their best airmen to safe training grounds, where could the Germans retreat to? Even training sorties were flown in airspace that was continually under threat of harassing Allied aircraft by late 1944.


I voted Luftwaffe, and the ME109 because the 109 was such a diverse aircraft. That its later versions werent good at dogfighting is because they needed to target bombers.

[Darkhorse]

Spitfire was faster and more agile than the 109 I believe. What the 109 did have was a much more powerful armament. The Spit had 8 .303 machine guns, whilst the 109 had a 20mm cannon, 2 13mm machine guns, and 2 7.92mm machine guns.

The Hurricane saved the RAF regardless. Despite being inferior to the 109.

[Spartacus the Irish]

Spitfire was faster and more agile than the 109 I believe. What the 109 did have was a much more powerful armament. The Spit had 8 .303 machine guns, whilst the 109 had a 20mm cannon, 2 13mm machine guns, and 2 7.92mm machine guns.

Nope. The 109 'Emil' E-4 had two 20mm Oerlikon MG/FF cannon and two 7.92mm MG17 machine guns; which saw the most action in the Battle of Britain. I think you're confusing and combining the E and G models (the Emil having 2x 7.92mm MGs and 2x 20mm cannon, and the Gustav having 2x 13mm Mgs and 1x 20mm cannon).

[Stavroforos]

If we're talking 1940, then the Germans definitely have the better and more experienced pilots, as they had already been flying since the Spanish Civil War. Hardware goes to RAF if you're comparing Spit and Me109, but both were outclassed later in the war by Fw190 and P-51D.

[Mega Tortas de Bodemloze]

Sounds like your talking 1940ish, so tip your hat to the Brits. Now if your talking machinery later in the war.....not so clear cut. The valor of the RAF saved Britain, pound for pound pilot not machine carries the day.

[René Artois]

I would also like to point out Douglas Bader- 22 and a half kills and he didn't have legs.