RS world map size vs real world size

[LittleD]

I always have wondered this, but how does the RTW map engine work? when I have a battle lets say somewhere in Germania. Then when I am finished with the battle I move my army a small way on the campaign map, how much (km or miles) is that? and would it be anywhere close to the distance I have moved the same way on a real world map?

I do not know if this sounds confusing to you guys but it is the only way I can think to put it.

[Darkside]

I dont' know at all, but since I'm perusing the forum at the moment...VERY good question.

[LittleD]

I guess no one knows?

[King_Darius]

id say....
look at a real world map, pinpoint the 2 locations u are going from and to, then measure it....

[General Brittanicus]

Probably need to find out the distance between the two points in real life and then measure how far it is on RS map, although i would have thought that the distances on the RS map would vary depending on how far you were zoomed in or the size of your screen, so theres no real knowing.

I dont know what span of time is represented by 1 turn on RS, but on some of the total war games when each turn represented sumthin like 6 months it would technically mean it could take you a year or more to travel from the tip of italy to the top, which was just ridiculous-that was a bit of a tangent but who cares .

[Acid Dent]

On this I have to say a few words of discontent. The RS map isn't proportional at all, especially when it comes to provinces. In my opinion, it's RS's biggest deal, the game is geographically annoying; there are settlement-concentrated regions such as Sicily and Greece, and yet vast empty regions like russia and palestine. At least the cities are correctly named and located. I truly hope RS2 will be more considerate when it comes to province selection, distribution, and size.

On the distance subject, you have to use a scale on a map and measure the distance between points, but it's pretty clear it's unproportional in the game. And on the travel time subject, Roman legions were capable of marching on paved roads at roughly 40 kms per day. That means roughly 300 km per week.
At that speed, they could travel from Rome to Mediolanum in less than 15 days. And the game only allows that distance to be travelled once every 6 months... Can't be helped I guess.

I wish the next Total War game had a real-time campaign map, like XCOM. > 1 day >> 1 week >>> 1 month

[Beetlecat]

population density = settlement density = smaller provinces.

Travel time has to be abstracted. RS is very generous when it comes to this-especially ships and agents. Played many other mods?

[Acid Dent]

Seriously, if i say you can get a 1million dollar house in either Italy or Russia, where would you choose to build it ?

Italy of course, but that's not the point. Sicily in my view, is poorly divided province-wise. It has 6 provinces, and that's a lot considering its size. If the reason is to make it a heavily populated island, that's ok, but I doubt Sicily was more populated than Gaul, which has about 11 or 12 provinces, but over 20 times the size of Sicily!
Maybe the reason is to difficultate (?word?) the dominance over the entire island.
But I understand your explanation, I just wish there was a way to make cities population reach the hundreds of thousands; or have 2 cities per settlement, one for commerce and industry, the other a citadel, for troop training and border protection. I'm wishing a lot lately...

Travel time has to be abstracted. RS is very generous when it comes to this-especially ships and agents. Played many other mods?

yes I have, RTR, SPQR, EB, but RS is the only one that stays after all these years. And agents should move much much longer than troops in a turn, since it's just one man instead of thousands of soldiers, horses and carriages.

[Killerbee]

It has 6 provinces, and that's a lot considering its size. If the reason is to make it a heavily populated island, that's ok, but I doubt Sicily was more populated than Gaul, which has about 11 or 12 provinces, but over 20 times the size of Sicily!

yes I have, RTR, SPQR, EB, but RS is the only one that stays after all these years. And agents should move much much longer than troops in a turn, since it's just one man instead of thousands of soldiers, horses and carriages.

Another RTW limit is that you can have a max amount of 200 regions, including the sea(s). And i think the reason that Sicily has so many settlements is because Syracuse is a faction. It would be kinda boring to play as Syracuse if you only had 3 cities on your island

But i agree, Sicily is very closely populated, compared to the rest.

You should also look gameplay/balance-wise. Give the Aedui and the Arverni each 12 regions, and they would steamroll everyone, including the romans.

[Alavaria]

Well, the thing is that the 1 turn = 6 months is what you start with. Given a, say, 4 turn per year mod (1 turn = 3 months).

You could *kinda* make a a super awesome 365 turn per year mod, or something. Or possibly 52 turns per year, so a turn is a week. But remember, that means a building that takes 2 turns (temple) now would require 52 turns. And the Marian reforms would be hundreds of turns away, likely.

[Bull3pr00f de Bodemloze]

yeah, a weekly turn system might be good for simulating short reall-history campaigns, like Alexander's, but for a grand scale campaign from 220 BC to 14 AD it just takes WAY too long to finish one year.

[dvk901]

First of all, the distance an army can travel on the RS1.5\6 map was calculated based on the distance a Roman Legion could march in one day, x 30 x 6 to match a six month march. So the movement in RS is fairly accurate....and yes, probably more generous than in a lot of other mods. BUT, this also corrected another problem with what we modders loving call 'stuck armies'. A stuck army is one that the AI sent out to attack something, and then lost track of and can no longer 'see'. Some notables on the site, including myself, did a lot of testing on this issue, and found that more realistic movement points greatly reduced the numbers of stuck armies. This is just because as the movement points are increased, the AI can 'see' farther, and doesn't lose them. Crooked roads, 90 degree turns, roads that go behind mountains are all a factor in the AI's 'line of sight', and you really can't correct them all and still have a decent map. But movement points help a lot, and some careful map work.

As far as the region distribution in RS1.6 and RS2, you need to look at this mod, and the game, and the time period thru eyes that see only what existed THEN.....not with modern day conceptions of the way it should be. During the 'Classical Era', the areas of Scandanavia, Briton, Russia, etc. were sparsely populated in terms of the number of people per square (whatever measurement you use). Areas of the world that were densely populated (for that time) were Italy, the coastal areas of Africa (to some extent), Greece, Anatolia (modern day Turkey), the area around the Bosphorus, Egypt, Sicily, etc. This is the FIRST factor we took into account in region distribution.

The second factor has to do with the focus of the time and the game itself....Rome. It is, afterall, ROME Total War. So the main focus of both our mods is on areas that somehow diplomatically or militarily affected or influenced the growing Roman world.....and or likewise, how Rome affected evryone else.

The third factor is simply 'economic significance' as dictated by the above conditions. Sicily, for example, as well as Egypt, were 'key' factors in the building of Empire's. Syracuse, Carthage, Greece, and Rome fought over it bitterly. Why? Just because they liked islands? No, because it produced a significant amount of the world's grain. That means bread, and that means feeding your people and keeping them happy. So Sicily is accurately portrayed as a populated, difficult, and vitally important area of the world to conquer and control....as it was for many 1000's of years.

What importance did the area of modern day Russia have to this world? To be blunt, none. Other than to fend off Sarmatian and Scythian incurrsions into their areas, the Greek's and Roman's had little desire to conquer them, and even less to place any value on them. It was simply too big, too inhospitable, and not worth the bother TO THEM. That's the important thing to remember. It isn't a slight or insult directed at these areas, it's just that they were not strategically important in this day and age.
So, the regions are very large. The settlements are very remote. This is simply how it was....well, actually, the whole idea of RTW-style settlements in Russia is basically wrong for the area as well. These people were nomadic and rarely built 'settlements'. They were more like temporary camps.

The area of Palestine....I'll grant there 'could' be more regions there, but given our limitations with RTW's mapping...this would fall under 'economic significance'. In this case, not a lot. Empire's wanted to control it for what went THROUGH it...not for what it was economically worth. In otherwords, the many trade routes that went through it's ports. Sure, I'll give you 'olive oil' as important, but I'll guarantee Rome fought a lot harder over Sicily and Egypt than they did Palestine. And even when they HAD Palestine, they most likely wished they didn't have to have it at all! It was serious trouble for the Empire.

I don't know if this soothes the disconntent, but that's the story.

[Killerbee]

that makes everything clear i guess

So i guess it's a bit like India in E:TW. If you control that land, your economy boasts significantly due to extra trade income. Seen that the Ancient Era was focused on the mediterranean, and Sicily is one of the biggest islands in that sea, it was probably a place that gave an enormous boost for your trade income.

[intel]

What importance did the area of modern day Russia have to this world? To be blunt, none. Other than to fend off Sarmatian and Scythian incurrsions into their areas, the Greek's and Roman's had little desire to conquer them, and even less to place any value on them. It was simply too big, too inhospitable, and not worth the bother TO THEM. That's the important thing to remember. It isn't a slight or insult directed at these areas, it's just that they were not strategically important in this day and age.

To add more, Russian land is very unhospitable, unfertile and has very harsh weather. It was also entirely covered in deep forests, and offered little in return. It was largely unhabitated up to dark ages, when viking colonisation begun. Russia always relied economically on its Eastern and Souther possesions. Not until the Early Modern times (XVIIIth century) it gained any significance.

[apple]

+ Remember that there is nor less than 3 factions fighting over Sicily and that creates a need for more settlements so it's a gameplay factor too.

[LittleD]

thank you dvk, that is what I like to have read, nice long detailed paragraphs with a little bit of extra information. I learned something today haha.

[Acid Dent]

Discontentment-soothing indeed. I see your point about Sicily's predicament as a mediterranean "power hub", and Russia's equivalent to the nomad lands that stretch out to the world's end. And as you explained, the Steppes shouldn't even have settlements, but the game needs its spawn points...
I think the same goes for Palestine, it's an arid, poor land, with provinces that span large areas of empty, flat desert...
One way to make it interesting for campaigning in the Middle East would be to make it labyrinthine. Riddle the Levant with many thin mountain passes and roadless valleys - plenty of ambushes to be had, twists and turns of fate for many legions await unintentional rhyme BTW

I just want to say that I know about the engine's limitations, and I know the team is doing the best they can with what little they have. I'm sure RS2 will be nothing less than spectacular. And addicting.

[dvk901]

I'm glad the explanation helps. Believe me, we had some torrid and furious discussions about this in developement, and as usual compromised peacefully as we always do.

[coinich]

I'm glad the explanation helps. Believe me, we had some torrid and furious discussions about this in developement, and as usual compromised peacefully as we always do.

In other words, fights to the death? Certainly would explain why you always seem to need new RS2 beta testers...

[dvk901]

Hmmmm...yes, we seem to kill them off quite regularly. LOL