Before the big bang...

[Shams al-Ma'rifa]

Atheists claim that they are logical and rationalists but the probability of the universe ending up the way is today just by chance is near impossible... It is way more rational to believe in a higher being who set things is order... Whose existence lies outside the boundary of time...

Given: This higher being lies outside the realm of time and space

Every event in this universe occurs within the boundary of space and time.
Space and time in this universe was non-existent before the big bang.
The Law of Causality applies in space-time and in the creation of space-time.

The first postulate concludes that concludes that reality within this universe was non existent before space time.

The second postulate concludes that space time was non-existent before the big bang. The big bang was the start of space time in this universe.

The third postulate concludes that something outside the boundaries of space-time must have created space-time itself. Postulates 1,2,3 together concludes that the big bang was the start of space-time itself and that something from outside the realm of space-time must have created space-time seeing how there was no reality in this universe before the big bang therefore eliminating causality from within this universe.

Now who created this higher being you ask? Well nothing... it lies outside the realm of space-time. There was nothing before time... Time is like the beginning of everything so whatever lies outside of space time is by default, timeless...

The only other way this universe can possibly be created is if it was born from another universe and that's IF multiverse theory is true... Even if it is, we can conclude that these universes also exist within the realm of space-time and so a higher being must have triggered the event leading to the first universe...

OR... Dr. Statistics can argue against the validity of the postulates and still say eveything happened randomly. Then add up all the events leading up to the universe's present state and give me a number on the probability of this perfect sequence occurring by change.

[Playfishpaste]

Space and time in this universe was non-existent before the big bang.-False.
Every event in this universe occurs within the boundary of space and time.-True, but you're using the wrong words, it's spacetime, to be technical, and it works quite differently then moving in three dimensional space and living through cause and effect.
Every event in this universe must be triggered by an outside source (A house cannot build itself)-Untrue, this is pre-determinism.

[Shams al-Ma'rifa]

Space and time in this universe was non-existent before the big bang.-False.

what no this is true... there was a singularity... the universe was a single matter was tinier than an electron if you consider that space... and its not like this tiny atom existed within a bigger black space... no i mean the universe was the size of that tiny electron... thats all the space there is not even as big as an electron... it was one matter and nothing within its walls... i dont even know what to call it... there was no time within the singularity.. the only other space possible is in another universe but i already addresed that...

Every event in this universe must be triggered by an outside source (A house cannot build itself)-Untrue, this is pre-determinism.

no... even if a coconut drops on your face randomly it is triggered by a falling coconut...

[Playfishpaste]

what no this is true... there was a singularity... the only spacetime was tinier than an electron if you consider that space...

I do consider that space, as does everyone else in the physics community, that was in fact, the whole universe, all of the matter in it. Afterward, all that happened was it just got spread out, the big bang didn't "create" the universe (apart from other parts of the particle zoo that were created from the immense heat), it simply made it spread out like pizza dough.

no... even if a coconut drops on your face randomly it is triggered by a falling coconut...

The falling coconut is not an "outside source", it is part of the closed system that is the island you are on.

[Shams al-Ma'rifa]

I do consider that space, as does everyone else in the physics community, that was in fact, the whole universe, all of the matter in it. Afterward, all that happened was it just got spread out, the big bang didn't "create" the universe (apart from other parts of the particle zoo that were created from the immense heat), it simply made it spread out like pizza dough.

edited... there was an infinitely small room and no time within the singularity...

The falling coconut is not an "outside source", it is part of the closed system that is the island you are on.

excuse my grammar. what i mean was yea... a house cannot build itself without an opposing force that is not itself... i think its a relatively simple principle here man. a house cannot built itself unless wind magically blows it into a certain shape and pushes nails into the boards and even then it was the wind which caused the house to build...

[Playfishpaste]

edited... there was an infinitely small room and no time within the singularity...

And this is why the second mistake you made is so important, spacetime is a singular thing. Where there is space, there is time.

excuse my grammar. what i mean was yea... a house cannot build itself without an opposing force or w.e...

An opposing force?

I think what you're trying to say is every event has a cause (though not necessarily a singular necessary cause). This is causality and is definitely accepted in the scientific community.

[Banana Jelly]

This is what I said in my thread.

/end thread

According to the big bang theory, there was nothing before the Big Bang. Absolutley nothing. No time or space. To say there is something would be redicloulous

[Pious Agnost]

Two things.

1.) The Big Bang is a THEORY, i.e. it is not said to be completely correct, it is simply the best explanation at the given time.
2.) Atheists do not necessarily believe it is true, nor is it only Atheists that do.

[B-DizL]

Atheists claim that they are logical and rationalists but the probability of the universe ending up the way is today just by chance is near impossible... It is way more rational to believe in a higher being who set things is order... Whose existence lies outside the boundary of time...

Youve obviously never heard of multiple dimensions which string theory suggests there are many, even if you dont believe in string theory the idea still stands and is no less ridiculous than believing what you believe..

In all the of other dimensions lies all the other possible outcomes of the universe so there is no need for this one dimension to have been perfect from the onset it is just one of the many versions that exist and in this version the forces of gravity magnetism etc are just right.

[Shams al-Ma'rifa]

Youve obviously never heard of multiple dimensions which string theory suggests there are many, even if you dont believe in string theory the idea still stands and is no less ridiculous than believing what you believe..

In all the of other dimensions lies all the other possible outcomes of the universe so there is no need for this one dimension to have been perfect from the onset it is just one of the many versions that exist and in this version the forces of gravity magnetism etc are just right.

read entire post please...

[B-DizL]

read entire post please...

ok done, whats your point... the multiverse theory still explains how the universe can be created without the need for the perfect conditions, all other conditions are expressed in the other universes.

[Shams al-Ma'rifa]

ok done, whats your point... the multiverse theory still explains how the universe can be created without the need for the perfect conditions, all other conditions are expressed in the other universes.

so you're saying there is no spacetime in those universes...?

[B-DizL]

so you're saying there is no spacetime in those universes...?

lolwut? at what point did i say that...

[germ14]

Well as far as I know matter must take up space, even an extremely small one. The Big Bang theorizes that all matter in the universe was compressed into one infintesimal point, which randomly expanded, the resulting spread out matter condensed and formed everything in the universe today. (My paraphrase of Big Bang theory correct me if wrong please)

Time and space are the same, simply representing different dimensions in which, interactions of matter occur, so time and space were existent before the big bang (AFAIK) nothing was really happening though. Things on our level could theoretically occur outside time, since we have theorized more dimensions through string theory.

Also your 3rd postulate is somewhat true, things do not truly happen spontaneously, so something had to start the ball rolling.

[Phier]

Now who created this higher being you ask? Well nothing... it lies outside the realm of time and space.. There was nothing before time... Time is like the beginning of everything so nothing could have possibly existed before this.

The thought of the Universe spontaneously creating itself (or always was) somehow from nothing is mindboggling. I don't get it.

The thought of their being an all knowing all doing being which was spontaneously created (or always was) from nothing is mindboggling ^2. I don't get it * I don't get it.

If your answer to a difficult question is a more difficult question, you really haven't answered anything, and odds are you took the easy way out.

[Phier]

if something exists outside of spacetime, by default it has existed beyond the definition of time since there is no time before time...

it's not my fault you're confused. im just adressing all the critics saying that belief in god is illogical when it's starting to look brighter the more we discuss this...

I can make up things that sound intelligent but means and explains absolutely NOTHING too.

God always existed because it exists outside of time and space because time is meaningless without time.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Brilliant!

[Shams al-Ma'rifa]

I can make up things that sound intelligent but means and explains absolutely NOTHING too.

God always existed because it exists outside of time and space because time is meaningless without time.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Brilliant!

You were questioning how it is possible for something to exist outside of time... I thought you would have an easier time accepting the principle if it sounded more validated but that would take some effort seeing how it was a relatively simple concept to begin with...

[PointOfViewGun]

Atheists claim that they are logical and rationalists but the probability of the universe ending up the way is today just by chance is near impossible... It is way more rational to believe in a higher being who set things is order... Whose existence lies outside the boundary of time...
Given: This higher being lies outside the realm of time and space
Space and time in this universe was non-existent before the big bang.
Every event in this universe occurs within the boundary of space and time.
Every event in this universe must be triggered by an outside source (A house cannot build itself)
The first postulate concludes that space and time was non-existent before the big bang. The big bang was the first event in this universe.
The second postulate concludes that reality within this universe was non existent before space and time.
The third postulate concludes that an outside source must have triggered the big bang. Postulates 1,2,3 together concludes that the big bang cannot occur spontaneously, there was no universe before the big bang meaning...
Something from outside the realm of time and space must have triggered it which is where we get to number 4... a higher being did it...
Now who created this higher being you ask? Well nothing... it lies outside the realm of time and space.. There was nothing before time... Time is like the beginning of everything so nothing could have possibly existed before this.
The only other way this universe can possibly be created is if it was born from another universe and that's IF multiverse theory is true... Even if it is, we can conclude that these universes also exist within the realm of time and space and so this higher being must have triggered the event leading to the first universe...
OR... Dr. Statistics can argue against the validity of the postulates and still say eveything happened randomly. Then add up all the events leading up to the universe's present state and give me a number on the probability of this perfect sequence occurring by change.

The problem here is that we postulate about something we don't really understand. We assume a set of rules to be granted and work over them. What we can possibly do about the creation of the universe scientifically is to create theories. We might even think that we prove them inside the parameters of our understanding but it still wouldn't mean that it's the truth. On the other hand you can only believe that the universe was created by God. To me one is not much different than the other.

[Playfishpaste]

There are three things wrong with your post.

A. Even if thought was outside the physical world as you say it is, there is still the problem of it taking up time, as concepts are within the bounds of the universe, they are natural, not supernatural, and therefore, cannot exist outside the universe (this is assuming your law of "things in the universe cannot be outside it" even though that law doesn't seem to have any backing).

B. Thoughts are physical, they have been demonstrated to be the electrical processes of the frontal lobe and until further evidence is presented they can be nothing more. What do you propose they are instead of this?

C. There are several theories in physics which posit a universe with no beginning, like M theory and the oscillatory universe, this is partly because in zero dimensional space, spacetime wraps around itself infinitely, making the beginning of anything it's end at the same time, in the most simplest of explanations.

[Shams al-Ma'rifa]

There are three things wrong with your post. A. Even if thought was outside the physical world as you say it is, there is still the problem of it taking up time

outside space time in general. no space no time right, it is one entity

as concepts are within the bounds of the universe, they are natural, not supernatural, and therefore, cannot exist outside the universe

right well i'm saying how this higher being lies outside of spacetime in general so yes that includes this universe.

(this is assuming your law of "things in the universe cannot be outside it" even though that law doesn't seem to have any backing).

where did i say this...

Thoughts are physical, they have been demonstrated to be the electrical processes of the frontal lobe and until further evidence is presented they can be nothing more.

no not the process. i mean the experience. you cannot touch thought, you cannot put thought into a container, you cannot release pure thought from a flashlight (it can be communicated through words but not always)... I'm saying how the only thing that can exist outside of space time are abstract, metaphysical objects, like a collective conscience... many religions have described god as having a vast conscience so thought i would bring it up. of course any discussion on god cannot end in physics alone, we have to discuss the metaphysical at least...

There are several theories in physics which posit a universe with no beginning, like M theory and the oscillatory universe, this is partly because in zero dimensional space, spacetime wraps around itself infinitely, making the beginning of anything it's end at the same time, in the most simplest of explanations.

right but those theories fail to explain how space time came into existence to begin with...

TIGRUL

That's just silly. Yeah, the chance is extremely low

that's still an understatement... try near impossible...

But let me be a jerk and say things as they are: millions of atoms must have joined together in exactly the way they did, in order to for the sh@% that that annoying neighbour's dog just had on the sidewalk to be formed. The probability of those millions of atoms coming together in exactly the way they did is extremely low

it didn't form randomly... DNA information dictated how the cells would be arranged...

therefore, by your "logic", my neighbor's dog's excrement was surely created by an extremely intelligent being, higher than us, who had to set things in order and whose existence lies outside the boundary of time.

when did i ever say that? god has better things to do than creating excrement on a sidewalk... let's take this discussion seriously...

Listen, even though the chance for things to happen just as they have so far is incredibly low, it doesn't prove anything about any higher being. Even if we were to ignore my next point, we would at least have to conclude that we don't know how it is that events with such a low chance occurred, and to decide from this lack of knowledge that "god dun it" would be illogical.

how is it illogical... it's the best theory we have... more logical than your happens theory. I'm arguing how the creation of space time must be triggered from outside space time itself... I have heard god has existed forever and is timeless, he must exist outside the boundaries of space time for this to be possible and if he exists outside of space time, then he is a viable suspect... Also I have concluded that the only thing I can think of that can exist outside the boundaries of space time is a collective conscience... This is starting to sound more and more like god the more we discuss it...

But just as improbable was it for one atom to be in a different place, for two atoms to be in a different place

No this would actually be more probable... things jump around randomly in quantum physics... which makes the whole process of this universe created out of chance more improbable...