Priest - Imam - Pagan - Orthodox wars?

[Quercia]

Hmm, I have been wondering why Imams, Priests, Pagan and Orthodox priests can burn blaspheming heretics, but can't burn each other?

I mean, it makes sense. Anyone who didn't share the same belief, was considered heretic to some extent and should, in that time, be burned on the stakes.

This makes the religion a bit more harder, kind of like merchants. But it makes sense imo.

What do you think?

Also, Off Topic, Imams > Priests... my imams rapidly converted west-Turkey while Catholic priests take a lot longer!

[Belegorm]

I agree that there needs to be something a priest can do to orthodox priests and imams (maybe debate, or something), but I reject the absurd premise that historically everyone who didn't share their belief would be considered heretics, and burned to the stake. Moslems were simply considered heathens, not heretics. Certainly their religion is a heresy of a sort, more Christian than Manicheism. However, the way pushed itself forward was as a new religion and it was opposed as a religion. St. Francis didn't want Moslems burned at the stake; he went to try and convert them, and challenged the imams (though his contest did have to do with burning: he said that he and the imams would walk across a fire, and whoever's god protected him would be the victor; the imams did not take the challenge). The Orthodox certainly had some heretical views, but these were pardoned on account of their larger fault, namely their schism. To this day they are more pitied rather than despised. The Catholics clergy generally would avoid the Orthodox and Moslems (who lived in different lands), not burn them. When Spain conquered Granada, the Moors were told they could convert or leave; not be burned. However, those who became Catholic then apostised were subject to the Spanish Inquisition's inquiry (I'll not go into that matter here; would take too long to put together a defence of the Spanish Inquisition, and is basically off-topic). Not to mention the Moslems didn't burn Christians and Orthodox they conquered, they offered them either to convert, or be subject to dhimmitude (difficult taxes, low social status, no civil rights). The Orthodox didn't really ever attempt to convert any Roman Catholics.

Since you're changing the course of history in M2TW, I'd say you should be able to proselytize (which you can already), and maybe they can implement "debates" between priests and imams. There would be an explanation of what happened to the loser (discredited), then the priest could gain piety.

[JiangZiya]

Imagine what would have happened if a French Cardinal burned a Fatimid imam.
War, that's what.
There's the whole broad spectrum of Eurasian politics to consider.

[Warmaster Tibs]

Imagine what would have happened if a French Cardinal burned a Fatimid imam.
War, that's what.
There's the whole broad spectrum of Eurasian politics to consider.

Well if the a fatimid Iman was openly preaching " False doctrine"(in the eyes of the French) for his soverign I think that would be a decleration of war as well. I mean you just cant go into enemy lands and preach a different relegion and expect not to be burned for your heresy in those times...and todays.

[JiangZiya]

Medieval governments were more complicated than that. In order for someone of another established religion to tried for heresy (which is impossible, as it's a totally different and moreover ESTABLISHED religion*), they had to gain the approval of both the Catholic church and the sovereign.

*"Christian heresy refers to unorthodox practices and beliefs that were deemed to be heretical by one or more of the Christian churches." - Oxford English dictionary

Therefore it would be without reason for a Catholic religious official to burn a Muslim at the stake because they are simply adhering to their own religion. Persecuted heretics were pursued by officials of their own established religion. Moreover, most medieval nations in Europe by 1200 after the end of the Moslem conquests in Iberia and Italy were very sympathetic to Islam based upon the financial and scientific advances Muslims brought with them.

Paganism is a totally different issue. They were burned for quote, being "Barbaric."

Putting all that aside, it's literally impossible to implement this idea into the game in the first place based upon the games coding.

[Warmaster Tibs]

Medieval governments were more complicated than that. In order for someone of another established religion to tried for heresy (which is impossible, as it's a totally different and moreover ESTABLISHED religion*), they had to gain the approval of both the Catholic church and the sovereign.

*"Christian heresy refers to unorthodox practices and beliefs that were deemed to be heretical by one or more of the Christian churches." - Oxford English dictionary

Therefore it would be without reason for a Catholic religious official to burn a Muslim at the stake because they are simply adhering to their own religion. Persecuted heretics were pursued by officials of their own established religion. Moreover, most medieval nations in Europe by 1200 after the end of the Moslem conquests in Iberia and Italy were very sympathetic to Islam based upon the financial and scientific advances Muslims brought with them.

Paganism is a totally different issue. They were burned for quote, being "Barbaric."

Putting all that aside, it's literally impossible to implement this idea into the game in the first place based upon the games coding.

Come now, say I was the kingdom of jerusalem or something. There would be no reason to not kill a Iman converting my people! We are at war! Also if someone was converting a kings people to a different relegion surely this teacher of foreign relegion would be dealt with violently most likely by a local official or a angry mob....or something! Granted I am not so "informed" about how medeival courts worked but surely people would not stand for that.

[cedric37]

I did not notice this at first, but now that you say it.... So the best way to get rid off those priests is to completly destroy their faction; and they will disappear (the same with their merchants) ^^ Another way i use to avoid employing assassins, is to send as many priests in this province as needed to avoid my religion% to decrease. Since i am playing 6.2, the religion% decrease less (i think settlements bring more conversion than before), so sometimes even with a high level imam in my province (playing as catholic) my catholic% continue to increase (i guess this is due to me having a cathedral).

[cedric37]

It reminds me than when playing as KoJ in a past game, i did take Nicosea, and 10 imams came out of the settlement. 1-2 of them also turned heretic; and a foreign merchant was keeping the only ressource of the isle. So i send an agent and started to murder the 1 piety priests; after 2-3 successful missions he get already like 5-6 eyes then he managed to clean the whole isle (at the end he got 9 eyes ^^).
Generally when an assassin become so bad (0 eye) that he is completly useless i send him on suicide missions on rebels (you can try until the agent die). Speaking of rebels it is a very easy way to boost your assassin capacity (don't bother with generals, just attack captains).

[JorisofHolland]

Yes, killing enemy captains is a very good way to train. Agents too, if you're at war with a real faction.