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Thread: The Proper Usage of Carroccio Standards?

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  1. #1
    Reconquistador's Avatar Miles
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    Default The Proper Usage of Carroccio Standards?

    I've been deliberating how best to employ the Carroccio Standard in the armies of the Italian City-States. Specifically in Venice, where my allegiance lies, but since the Carroccio arrives around the same time for all the Italian factions... well. Any discussion about the Mighty standard should experience some faction overlap.

    From my understanding, the Carroccio Standard is the the unholy fusion a general, a smaller unit of infinite-morale spearmen, and a siege engine. Given how the composition of Venetian (and all Italian) armies around that time period tend to lean militia-heavy, the morale-boosting influence of the massive standard is the Italian answer to the lack of professional armies. After all, Militia units will fight and die under the shadow of their city-state's Carroccio. For an added-plus, that elite unit of Carroccio Spearmen bodyguards will fight to the last man, making them impossible to rout.

    Now, my research has fallen flat because there's hardly any documentation on the Carroccio itself. Certainly, guide after guide has acclaimed the Standard's utility in the extremely saturated clime of Northern Italia, but after that, there's hardly any information on their morale-boosting effects, proper tactical deployment, et cetera.

    So my questions are the following:

    1) Morale - What exactly is the numerical bonus to morale provided by the Carroccio Standard? And what is the ultimate range of the Carroccio's morale effects? Additionally, is there a morale penalty administered upon the loss of a Standard, and if so, what is the numerical value of this penalty?

    2)Spearmen Attributes - I'm well-aware that Carroccio standards are pushed by spearmen that never rout, even in the face of suicidal odds. My question is pertains to how they operate in combat: Spears normally get bonuses against cavalry charges, but do they lose these bonuses while pushing the cart? Can a Carroccio Standard bodyguard rout if separated (i.e. ~ no longer pushing) the Standard?

    3) Deployment - What is the ideal tactical deployment of the Carroccio Standard? Common practice seems to have the Carroccio immediately behind the center of the line of Spearmen. But because spear and pike militia generally suffer from low morale figures and an extreme vulnerability to flank attacks, is there any benefit to placing a Carroccio standard directly behind each of the flank-protecting spears or pikes (i.e. ~ the left-most and right-most units of a spear or pike front line)?

    I'd rationalize this formation as similar to the MTW spear wall, where high morale spears on the end of the spear wall are replaced by the Carrocio's Spearmen. The Carroccio's morale boost would transform the left-most and right-most spear and pike militia into high-morale spear infantry. Plus, if the flanks start to crumble under pressure, the spearmen pushing the Carroccio wagons would essentially serve as a quick-response reserve with infinite morale. (The only downside to this I can see so far is that you need two standards to make it work.)

    4) Number - How many Carroccio Standards should be employed on the battlefield at any given time? (I'm curious about whether the benefits of a second Standard outweigh the costs or not.)

    5) Multiplayer - Finally, under what conditions is there a benefit to taking a Carroccio Standard into a multiplayer skirmish?

    It is not titles that honor men, but men that honor titles.

  2. #2

    Default Re: The Proper Usage of Carroccio Standards?

    I've been playing this game since it came out and I've never figured out what or if the standards have a morale radius. I usually try to keep them close but I never experimented if they had the same effect from far away, though I imagine that the effect diminishes over distance.

    As for multiplayer, they make any Italian army killer, if you can afford it. I've won a few games on the merit of the standard alone. I would be losing but my guys just refused to rout and eventually the enemy who outnumbered me started routing. I find them even more important in late or all periods since all the gunpowder units on the field can make your army chain rout for a quick and utter loss. If you are expecting a lot of artillery though they may not be a good idea since they can be destroyed by art.

  3. #3

    Default Re: The Proper Usage of Carroccio Standards?

    Put Carracio standards close to your Milanese or Venetian units and they will be less likely to run away, read the description

  4. #4
    Reconquistador's Avatar Miles
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    Default Re: The Proper Usage of Carroccio Standards?

    Quote Originally Posted by UCMENOMOR View Post
    Put Carracio standards close to your Milanese or Venetian units and they will be less likely to run away, read the description
    ... Well, duh. If you actually read anything I posted, you'd realize I knew that already. Thanks for a really unhelpful post.

    Quote Originally Posted by Old_Scratch View Post
    I've been playing this game since it came out and I've never figured out what or if the standards have a morale radius. I usually try to keep them close but I never experimented if they had the same effect from far away, though I imagine that the effect diminishes over distance.

    As for multiplayer, they make any Italian army killer, if you can afford it. I've won a few games on the merit of the standard alone. I would be losing but my guys just refused to rout and eventually the enemy who outnumbered me started routing. I find them even more important in late or all periods since all the gunpowder units on the field can make your army chain rout for a quick and utter loss. If you are expecting a lot of artillery though they may not be a good idea since they can be destroyed by art.
    In your opinion, Scratch, how do they compare to pike militia? Or, alternatively, how do they do when used in conjunction with pike militia? I'm wondering if I can do without pikes all together, or if it's better to use Carroccios with pike formations.

    It is not titles that honor men, but men that honor titles.

  5. #5

    Default Re: The Proper Usage of Carroccio Standards?

    Quote Originally Posted by Reconquistador View Post
    In your opinion, Scratch, how do they compare to pike militia? Or, alternatively, how do they do when used in conjunction with pike militia? I'm wondering if I can do without pikes all together, or if it's better to use Carroccios with pike formations.
    You're talking about the spearmen pushing the standard? They have unlimited morale, but are too few in number to make any real difference. Pikes are always a better option for stopping cavalry than spears anyway. Good heavy cavalry can still break right through spearmen.

    I almost exclusively play multiplayer so I'm speaking from that perspective. At 150 florins (IIRC) pike militia are a real bargain and a great option for stopping cavalry, protecting your muskets or supporting your infantry. Pike militia are so cost effective that you can use the money you saved to give your VHI the weapon upgrade, making them crazy powerful.

    Also, you can really only afford to buy one standard in multiplayer. You only really need one standard anyway.

  6. #6

    Default Re: The Proper Usage of Carroccio Standards?

    Quote Originally Posted by Reconquistador View Post
    ... Well, duh. If you actually read anything I posted, you'd realize I knew that already. Thanks for a really unhelpful post.



    In your opinion, Scratch, how do they compare to pike militia? Or, alternatively, how do they do when used in conjunction with pike militia? I'm wondering if I can do without pikes all together, or if it's better to use Carroccios with pike formations.
    NOW THAT IS JUST MEAN, but seriosly in my opinion thay actually are pretty much a wast of a unit except for the spearmen and for your info. they are more like armoured seargents, they take too long to move(moving like artilery) and they have not yet proven them selves to me I have had units run right past it and not come back plus even if some units are close and are "shaken" they do not even get any kind of moral boost.

  7. #7

    Default Re: The Proper Usage of Carroccio Standards?

    Quote Originally Posted by UCMENOMOR View Post
    NOW THAT IS JUST MEAN, but seriosly in my opinion thay actually are pretty much a wast of a unit except for the spearmen and for your info. they are more like armoured seargents, they take too long to move(moving like artilery) and they have not yet proven them selves to me I have had units run right past it and not come back plus even if some units are close and are "shaken" they do not even get any kind of moral boost.
    It's not like the generals rally horn, it won't rally fleeing troops. And if your troops were shaken standing near the standard then they probably would have been routed without it. They certainly give a huge morale boost which compensates for the low morale in Italian armies.

  8. #8
    John Doe's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: The Proper Usage of Carroccio Standards?

    I never used them, I don't play that much with Milan and Venice. To answer your third on deployment, they should be use in bottleneck battles (bridge, doors) since troops need to be close to it. I'm going to speculate but it makes sense: when fighting a fully dreaded general (monghols/tim), your rooky troops tend to just sponteniously rout at the sight of him, so it should counter that. Second, in bottleneck, the standart can be use as a cork and block the passage (like you could do with catapult/ballista).

    But then does a Standart work when all spearmen are dead or when it is not manned?

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    Reconquistador's Avatar Miles
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    Default Re: The Proper Usage of Carroccio Standards?

    Quote Originally Posted by zyxos View Post
    But then does a Standart work when all spearmen are dead or when it is not manned?
    I've noticed during gameplay that the Standard keeps its morale bonus so long as it continues to exist. It's like a massive monolith on the battlefield, under which the troops will keep fighting. Unless it's destroyed, of course.

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    Default Re: The Proper Usage of Carroccio Standards?

    Just had a thought: would a standart make impossible for an army to rebel (without a general), or even unbribeable (city or army)?

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    Default Re: The Proper Usage of Carroccio Standards?

    I believe the standard is for battlefield effects only. Main map effects have never been mentioned.
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    cisse's Avatar Civis
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    Default Re: The Proper Usage of Carroccio Standards?

    Quote Originally Posted by Viking Prince View Post
    I believe the standard is for battlefield effects only. Main map effects have never been mentioned.
    Except for slowing the army that containes one, of course. Just like other arty units.

  13. #13

    Default Re: The Proper Usage of Carroccio Standards?

    Carroccio Standards seem like a nice way to keep your cake and eat it too. If you have a high-chivalry general, they're somewhat redundant. But they'd go well with a high-dread general. The Standard stiffens your forces, while your general undermines your enemies.
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    UndrState's Avatar Centenarius
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    Default Re: The Proper Usage of Carroccio Standards?

    Quote Originally Posted by MooseUpNorth View Post
    Carroccio Standards ... go well with a high-dread general. The Standard stiffens your forces, while your general undermines your enemies.
    That is a very good point.

    When I was last playing as Milan, I had these standards in bases in at key defensive points in Northern Italy - no one was going to invade without being thoroughly punished.

    Now, as I play with HRE, the Standard is an object I look to destroy - I've always assumed that as long as its standing Milan is reaping the benefit.

    I'd like to know how that bonus compares to the Great Cross - does anyone know?

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    Reconquistador's Avatar Miles
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    Default Re: The Proper Usage of Carroccio Standards?

    Has anyone mentioned the Carroccio spearmen are great at tying up high-profile cavalry? I've consistently used the merry band of Carroccio spearmen to lock a unit of heavy cavalry in place (i.e. A general's bodyguard) so my light cavalry can flank in from behind and tighten the noose. You can trust every unit of Carroccio spearmen to fight to the death, even in ridiculously impossible odds, which makes them perfect for taking on high profile cavalry targets (because I can trust them not to run like sissy cowards and the enemy heavy cav will need to hack through them to the last man to successfully escape).

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    Thalassocrat's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: The Proper Usage of Carroccio Standards?

    They take the place of legionary eagles, divine inspiration on the battlefield. Armoured sergeants guard it, the only difference from the sergeants you can recruit is that they don't rout and are a quarter of the size.

    Here are some historical references
    http://books.google.com.my/books?id=...ndards&f=false

    http://books.google.com.my/books?id=...ndards&f=false

    I place them in battles where there is limited manuverability and it will boil down to a grinding match. Think of how you defend the city square.

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    Default Re: The Proper Usage of Carroccio Standards?

    I believe it works the same, though I cannot provide a reference. Just from a programmers point of view, that would be the easiest option.
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  18. #18

    Default Re: The Proper Usage of Carroccio Standards?

    perspective frum MP using cross papal state
    they hold ur line until about 20% left
    i think the unit itself is morale boost not the art piece. so i alway separate from begining of battle. if u use it as gen u get the horn as well
    loosing it = sum1 get behind ur line so that shock penalty enough

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