Abandonment of javelins in european warfare

[intel]

I've got a question: why was the javelin abandoned in medieval europe? I know about limited usage of javelins in Iberia and Eastern Europe, but as medieval progressed, javelin dissapeared from warfare, while in ancient era, it was widely and efficently used by both so-called barbarian states and romans. I'm sure that roman pilum (as an example) would still be an useful weapon. But nonetheless, nothing similiar was widely used.

[Condestável]

I´ll guess the diferent military cultures and the advent of gunpowder took an important role in the progressive abandonment of the javelins...

[intel]

But gunpowder was never as practical and portable as javelin. Also, when gunpowder-based weapons finally arrived at the fields of battles javelins and other thrown weapons were already out of use. And while javelins could be used by almost every kind of troop, guns were too clumsy and cumbersome to be used by, let's say, sergeants, and remained very specialised kind of weapon, just like crossbows, rarely to be used by melee troops at the scale observed in ancient times.

[Habelo]

I am also puzzled by this, since in mtw the irish javelin throwers are pr0 and i want playble javelins in that game

I am completly blank on this subject...

[Farnan]

Maybe a combination of shock cavalry's arrival in force and better bow making techniques. And you can carry far more arrows than javelins.

[intel]

Still, even though archers were usually suited for close combat, there never appeared any heavier kind of troop which would combine bow and heavy armour.

[Farnan]

Still, even though archers were usually suited for close combat, there never appeared any heavier kind of troop which would combine bow and heavy armour.

Archers were mostly Yeoman or peasants and most couldn't afford heavy armor. And with the decentralization of states, they didn't become as centralized as the Classical Empires to the age of gunpowder, the state no longer supplied equipment.

[Barry Ferguson]

I guess because skirmisher tactics didn't fit with "CHAAAARGE!!!!" doctrine of medieval warfare

[Farnan]

I guess because skirmisher tactics didn't fit with "CHAAAARGE!!!!" doctrine of medieval warfare

That is an over-simplification of the concept of war.

[Barry Ferguson]

That is an over-simplification of the concept of war.

Hey, it's what the French did at Agincourt and Crecy

[Farnan]

Hey, it's what the French did at Agincourt and Crecy

No, no its not.

Crecy began with a skirmish between Genoese Crossbowmen and English longbowmen in which the English decisively won and then the French Cavalry charge. And considering it was an example of what not to do in battle does not lead it to be seen as the typical medieval strategy.

And Agincourt was a case where the French plan didn't work and they were forced to charge in the front. They planned a hammer and anvil action...

[Barry Ferguson]

skirmish between Genoese Crossbowmen and English longbowmen in which the English decisively won ...

Suggesting that the technology of the javelin was obselete

[ivan_the_terrible]

I guess because skirmisher tactics didn't fit with "CHAAAARGE!!!!" doctrine of medieval warfare

That is grossly inaccurate.

[Marie Louise von Preussen]

In Crecy the French heavy cavalry charged and regrouped, charged and regrouped, and so on. It was not a wild running party where everyone was on their own.

Also it's important to know that there have been depictions of Plated Knights carrying javelins. The reason that we don't see them as often is that they undoubtedly fell out of prominence, but still, they could be very much used by anyone willing. Throwing a javelin is quick and easy to learn.

[Farnan]

In Crecy the French heavy cavalry charged and regrouped, charged and regrouped, and so on. It was not a wild running party where everyone was on their own.

Also it's important to know that there have been depictions of Plated Knights carrying javelins. The reason that we don't see them as often is that they undoubtedly fell out of prominence, but still, they could be very much used by anyone willing. Throwing a javelin is quick and easy to learn.

Yea, till the rise of Normans I believe Javelin Cavalry were not unknown, at least among the Bretons. Shock Cavalry and improvements in tech were what likely ended the Javelin.

[Barry Ferguson]

Yea, till the rise of Normans I believe Javelin Cavalry were not unknown, at least among the Bretons. Shock Cavalry and improvements in tech were what likely ended the Javelin.

I think I'm right in saying that the lance evolved from javelins, when the horseman stoppedthrowing and started stabbing under-arm with it

[Farnan]

I think I'm right in saying that the lance evolved from javelins, when the horseman stoppedthrowing and started stabbing under-arm with it

No. It evolved from the spear. Cavalry in the pre-Norman era used spears but did not couch them as much till the Norman Era. They usually used them overhand.

[Marie Louise von Preussen]

Couch, not "crouch".

[Farnan]

Damnit, hate misspelling it.

[hellheaven1987]

The fact was that javelins were additional range weapon for infantries, to provide more fire support before charge. From sources we have today, javelins were still widely used during Carolingian time, both by cavalries and infantries. Although the reason behind was probably because the failure to create an effective horse archers unit, hence heavy cavalries had to use javelin as standard range weapon during engagement.