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  1. #1
    B5C's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Cuba tries 'Socialism lite'

    Cuba gives 'socialism lite' a try as recession deepens

    Cuba's workplace cafeterias are closing, President Raúl Castro keeps saying the well-off shouldn't get the same subsidies as the poor, and now there are rumblings that one of the stalwart vestiges of the revolution -- the ration booklet -- has outlived its usefulness.

    As the Cuban government struggles through a deep recession, its leaders have begun picking away at socialism in order to save it. But experts say the latest buzz by the Cuban government is simply another desperate fix to stem the slide of a failed economy that buckled long ago.

    Even one of Havana's leading economists recently said Cuba's economy needed to be turned upside down -- "feet up." So taxi drivers got private licenses, farmers now have their own plots of land and government workers have to pack their own lunches.

    "I think what they are trying to do is prepare the people for a hard landing," said Cuba expert Jonathan Benjamin-Alvarado of the University of Nebraska. "The government is really saying in so many words: We've got limited resources and can only do so much. I think they are stuck."

    Since he took office early last year, Raúl Castro has been saying that the country's severely battered economy needs fixing. In a widely quoted August speech, Castro said Cuba was spending more than it made.

    "Nobody, no individual nor country, can indefinitely spend more than she or he earns. Two plus two always adds up to four, never five," he said. "Within the conditions of our imperfect socialism, due to our own shortcomings, two plus two often adds up to three."

    In the 18 months since he took office, Castro restructured the nation's agricultural system to give idle land to farmers, hoping they would revive a deeply troubled state-run agricultural industry plagued by inefficiency. He also allowed taxi drivers to have private licenses; many were working illegally anyway.

    http://www.mcclatchydc.com/255/story/77132.html
    I think this proves that communist nation need to change into more capitalist nations to survive in today's world.


    “Nothing could be more dangerous to the existence of this Republic than to introduce religion into politics”

  2. #2

    Default Re: Cuba trys 'Socialism lite'




    Surprise, surprise.
    Quote Originally Posted by A.J.P. Taylor
    Peaceful agreement and government by consent are possible only on the basis of ideas common to all parties; and these ideas must spring from habit and from history. Once reason is introduced, every man, every class, every nation becomes a law unto itself; and the only right which reason understands is the right of the stronger. Reason formulates universal principles and is therefore intolerant: there can be only one rational society, one rational nation, ultimately one rational man. Decisions between rival reasons can be made only by force.





    Quote Originally Posted by H.L Spieghel
    Is het niet hogelijk te verwonderen, en een recht beklaaglijke zaak, Heren, dat alhoewel onze algemene Dietse taal een onvermengde, sierlijke en verstandelijke spraak is, die zich ook zo wijd als enige talen des werelds verspreidt, en die in haar bevang veel rijken, vorstendommen en landen bevat, welke dagelijks zeer veel kloeke en hooggeleerde verstanden uitleveren, dat ze nochtans zo zwakkelijk opgeholpen en zo weinig met geleerdheid verrijkt en versiert wordt, tot een jammerlijk hinder en nadeel des volks?
    Quote Originally Posted by Miel Cools
    Als ik oud ben wil ik zingen,
    Oud ben maar nog niet verrot.
    Zoals oude bomen zingen,
    Voor Jan Lul of voor hun god.
    Ook een oude boom wil reizen,
    Bij een bries of bij een storm.
    Zelfs al zit zijn kruin vol luizen,
    Zelfs al zit zijn voet vol worm.
    Als ik oud ben wil ik zingen.

    Cò am Fear am measg ant-sluaigh,
    A mhaireas buan gu bràth?
    Chan eil sinn uileadh ach air chuart,
    Mar dhìthein buaile fàs,
    Bheir siantannan na bliadhna sìos,
    'S nach tog a' ghrian an àird.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jörg Friedrich
    When do I stop being a justified warrior? When I've killed a million bad civilians? When I've killed three million bad civilians? According to a warsimulation by the Pentagon in 1953 the entire area of Russia would've been reduced to ruins with 60 million casualties. All bad Russians. 60 million bad guys. By how many million ''bad'' casualties do I stop being a knight of justice? Isn't that the question those knights must ask themselves? If there's no-one left, and I remain as the only just one,

    Then I'm God.
    Quote Originally Posted by Louis Napoleon III, Des Idees Napoleoniennes
    Governments have been established to aid society to overcome the obstacles which impede its march. Their forms have been varied according to the problems they have been called to cure, and according to character of the people they have ruled over. Their task never has been, and never will be easy, because the two contrary elements, of which our existence and the nature of society is composed, demand the employment of different means. In view of our divine essence, we need only liberty and work; in view of our mortal nature, we need for our direction a guide and a support. A government is not then, as a distinguished economist has said, a necessary ulcer; it is rather the beneficent motive power of all social organisation.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfgang Held
    I walked into those baracks [of Buchenwald concentrationcamp], in which there were people on the three-layered bunkbeds. But only their eyes were alive. Emaciated, skinny figures, nothing more but skin and bones. One thinks that they are dead, because they did not move. Only the eyes. I started to cry. And then one of the prisoners came, stood by me for a while, put a hand on my shoulder and said to me, something that I will never forget: ''Tränen sind denn nicht genug, mein Junge,
    Tränen sind denn nicht genug.''

    Jajem ssoref is m'n korew
    E goochem mit e wenk, e nar mit e shtomp
    Wer niks is, hot kawsones

  3. #3

    Default Re: Cuba trys 'Socialism lite'

    Actually, what Mr. Castro is getting at is not that a socialist system must turn to capitalism to survive, but that Cuba failed to properly implement a socialist system, causing the present crisis.
    Within the conditions of our imperfect socialism, due to our own shortcomings, two plus two often adds up to three.
    قرطاج يجب ان تدمر

  4. #4

    Default Re: Cuba trys 'Socialism lite'

    Quote Originally Posted by motiv-8 View Post
    Actually, what Mr. Castro is getting at is not that a socialist system must turn to capitalism to survive, but that Cuba failed to properly implement a socialist system, causing the present crisis.
    Within the conditions of our imperfect socialism, due to our own shortcomings, two plus two often adds up to three.
    ''Socialism needs Capitalism like the human body needs oxygen.''

    -Lev Trotsky
    Quote Originally Posted by A.J.P. Taylor
    Peaceful agreement and government by consent are possible only on the basis of ideas common to all parties; and these ideas must spring from habit and from history. Once reason is introduced, every man, every class, every nation becomes a law unto itself; and the only right which reason understands is the right of the stronger. Reason formulates universal principles and is therefore intolerant: there can be only one rational society, one rational nation, ultimately one rational man. Decisions between rival reasons can be made only by force.





    Quote Originally Posted by H.L Spieghel
    Is het niet hogelijk te verwonderen, en een recht beklaaglijke zaak, Heren, dat alhoewel onze algemene Dietse taal een onvermengde, sierlijke en verstandelijke spraak is, die zich ook zo wijd als enige talen des werelds verspreidt, en die in haar bevang veel rijken, vorstendommen en landen bevat, welke dagelijks zeer veel kloeke en hooggeleerde verstanden uitleveren, dat ze nochtans zo zwakkelijk opgeholpen en zo weinig met geleerdheid verrijkt en versiert wordt, tot een jammerlijk hinder en nadeel des volks?
    Quote Originally Posted by Miel Cools
    Als ik oud ben wil ik zingen,
    Oud ben maar nog niet verrot.
    Zoals oude bomen zingen,
    Voor Jan Lul of voor hun god.
    Ook een oude boom wil reizen,
    Bij een bries of bij een storm.
    Zelfs al zit zijn kruin vol luizen,
    Zelfs al zit zijn voet vol worm.
    Als ik oud ben wil ik zingen.

    Cò am Fear am measg ant-sluaigh,
    A mhaireas buan gu bràth?
    Chan eil sinn uileadh ach air chuart,
    Mar dhìthein buaile fàs,
    Bheir siantannan na bliadhna sìos,
    'S nach tog a' ghrian an àird.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jörg Friedrich
    When do I stop being a justified warrior? When I've killed a million bad civilians? When I've killed three million bad civilians? According to a warsimulation by the Pentagon in 1953 the entire area of Russia would've been reduced to ruins with 60 million casualties. All bad Russians. 60 million bad guys. By how many million ''bad'' casualties do I stop being a knight of justice? Isn't that the question those knights must ask themselves? If there's no-one left, and I remain as the only just one,

    Then I'm God.
    Quote Originally Posted by Louis Napoleon III, Des Idees Napoleoniennes
    Governments have been established to aid society to overcome the obstacles which impede its march. Their forms have been varied according to the problems they have been called to cure, and according to character of the people they have ruled over. Their task never has been, and never will be easy, because the two contrary elements, of which our existence and the nature of society is composed, demand the employment of different means. In view of our divine essence, we need only liberty and work; in view of our mortal nature, we need for our direction a guide and a support. A government is not then, as a distinguished economist has said, a necessary ulcer; it is rather the beneficent motive power of all social organisation.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfgang Held
    I walked into those baracks [of Buchenwald concentrationcamp], in which there were people on the three-layered bunkbeds. But only their eyes were alive. Emaciated, skinny figures, nothing more but skin and bones. One thinks that they are dead, because they did not move. Only the eyes. I started to cry. And then one of the prisoners came, stood by me for a while, put a hand on my shoulder and said to me, something that I will never forget: ''Tränen sind denn nicht genug, mein Junge,
    Tränen sind denn nicht genug.''

    Jajem ssoref is m'n korew
    E goochem mit e wenk, e nar mit e shtomp
    Wer niks is, hot kawsones

  5. #5

    Default Re: Cuba trys 'Socialism lite'

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Croccer View Post
    ''Socialism needs Capitalism like the human body needs oxygen.''

    -Lev Trotsky
    Ever read Marx? Socialism only needs capitalism as a spring-board. I think you are grossly misinterpreting the statement. Or perhaps Trotsky was a closet privatization fiend; got himself snuffed out either way.
    قرطاج يجب ان تدمر

  6. #6

    Default Re: Cuba trys 'Socialism lite'

    Quote Originally Posted by motiv-8 View Post
    Ever read Marx? Socialism only needs capitalism as a spring-board. I think you are grossly misinterpreting the statement.
    Trotsky wasn't exactly an othodox Marxist. And whilst I disagree with him on some issues, he's right here.

    The Marxist definition of ''socialism'' is different from the Socialists' one, btw.
    Quote Originally Posted by A.J.P. Taylor
    Peaceful agreement and government by consent are possible only on the basis of ideas common to all parties; and these ideas must spring from habit and from history. Once reason is introduced, every man, every class, every nation becomes a law unto itself; and the only right which reason understands is the right of the stronger. Reason formulates universal principles and is therefore intolerant: there can be only one rational society, one rational nation, ultimately one rational man. Decisions between rival reasons can be made only by force.





    Quote Originally Posted by H.L Spieghel
    Is het niet hogelijk te verwonderen, en een recht beklaaglijke zaak, Heren, dat alhoewel onze algemene Dietse taal een onvermengde, sierlijke en verstandelijke spraak is, die zich ook zo wijd als enige talen des werelds verspreidt, en die in haar bevang veel rijken, vorstendommen en landen bevat, welke dagelijks zeer veel kloeke en hooggeleerde verstanden uitleveren, dat ze nochtans zo zwakkelijk opgeholpen en zo weinig met geleerdheid verrijkt en versiert wordt, tot een jammerlijk hinder en nadeel des volks?
    Quote Originally Posted by Miel Cools
    Als ik oud ben wil ik zingen,
    Oud ben maar nog niet verrot.
    Zoals oude bomen zingen,
    Voor Jan Lul of voor hun god.
    Ook een oude boom wil reizen,
    Bij een bries of bij een storm.
    Zelfs al zit zijn kruin vol luizen,
    Zelfs al zit zijn voet vol worm.
    Als ik oud ben wil ik zingen.

    Cò am Fear am measg ant-sluaigh,
    A mhaireas buan gu bràth?
    Chan eil sinn uileadh ach air chuart,
    Mar dhìthein buaile fàs,
    Bheir siantannan na bliadhna sìos,
    'S nach tog a' ghrian an àird.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jörg Friedrich
    When do I stop being a justified warrior? When I've killed a million bad civilians? When I've killed three million bad civilians? According to a warsimulation by the Pentagon in 1953 the entire area of Russia would've been reduced to ruins with 60 million casualties. All bad Russians. 60 million bad guys. By how many million ''bad'' casualties do I stop being a knight of justice? Isn't that the question those knights must ask themselves? If there's no-one left, and I remain as the only just one,

    Then I'm God.
    Quote Originally Posted by Louis Napoleon III, Des Idees Napoleoniennes
    Governments have been established to aid society to overcome the obstacles which impede its march. Their forms have been varied according to the problems they have been called to cure, and according to character of the people they have ruled over. Their task never has been, and never will be easy, because the two contrary elements, of which our existence and the nature of society is composed, demand the employment of different means. In view of our divine essence, we need only liberty and work; in view of our mortal nature, we need for our direction a guide and a support. A government is not then, as a distinguished economist has said, a necessary ulcer; it is rather the beneficent motive power of all social organisation.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfgang Held
    I walked into those baracks [of Buchenwald concentrationcamp], in which there were people on the three-layered bunkbeds. But only their eyes were alive. Emaciated, skinny figures, nothing more but skin and bones. One thinks that they are dead, because they did not move. Only the eyes. I started to cry. And then one of the prisoners came, stood by me for a while, put a hand on my shoulder and said to me, something that I will never forget: ''Tränen sind denn nicht genug, mein Junge,
    Tränen sind denn nicht genug.''

    Jajem ssoref is m'n korew
    E goochem mit e wenk, e nar mit e shtomp
    Wer niks is, hot kawsones

  7. #7

    Default Re: Cuba trys 'Socialism lite'

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Croccer View Post
    Trotsky wasn't exactly an othodox Marxist. And whilst I disagree with him on some issues, he's right here.
    I agree that to be realistic -- and that suits Trotsky -- one has to have a blend. That's not what Raul Castro is arguing, however, which was what I've been getting at all along.
    The Marxist definition of ''socialism'' is different from the Socialists' one, btw.
    Yes, I noticed from the last fifty years of history.
    قرطاج يجب ان تدمر

  8. #8

    Default Re: Cuba tries 'Socialism lite'

    "Capitalism will never fail because Socialism will always bail it out."
    Diary Entry by Joshua Snyder

  9. #9

    Default Re: Cuba tries 'Socialism lite'

    Quote Originally Posted by justicar5 View Post
    "Capitalism will never fail because Socialism will always bail it out."
    Diary Entry by Joshua Snyder
    Heh. Very true.
    Quote Originally Posted by A.J.P. Taylor
    Peaceful agreement and government by consent are possible only on the basis of ideas common to all parties; and these ideas must spring from habit and from history. Once reason is introduced, every man, every class, every nation becomes a law unto itself; and the only right which reason understands is the right of the stronger. Reason formulates universal principles and is therefore intolerant: there can be only one rational society, one rational nation, ultimately one rational man. Decisions between rival reasons can be made only by force.





    Quote Originally Posted by H.L Spieghel
    Is het niet hogelijk te verwonderen, en een recht beklaaglijke zaak, Heren, dat alhoewel onze algemene Dietse taal een onvermengde, sierlijke en verstandelijke spraak is, die zich ook zo wijd als enige talen des werelds verspreidt, en die in haar bevang veel rijken, vorstendommen en landen bevat, welke dagelijks zeer veel kloeke en hooggeleerde verstanden uitleveren, dat ze nochtans zo zwakkelijk opgeholpen en zo weinig met geleerdheid verrijkt en versiert wordt, tot een jammerlijk hinder en nadeel des volks?
    Quote Originally Posted by Miel Cools
    Als ik oud ben wil ik zingen,
    Oud ben maar nog niet verrot.
    Zoals oude bomen zingen,
    Voor Jan Lul of voor hun god.
    Ook een oude boom wil reizen,
    Bij een bries of bij een storm.
    Zelfs al zit zijn kruin vol luizen,
    Zelfs al zit zijn voet vol worm.
    Als ik oud ben wil ik zingen.

    Cò am Fear am measg ant-sluaigh,
    A mhaireas buan gu bràth?
    Chan eil sinn uileadh ach air chuart,
    Mar dhìthein buaile fàs,
    Bheir siantannan na bliadhna sìos,
    'S nach tog a' ghrian an àird.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jörg Friedrich
    When do I stop being a justified warrior? When I've killed a million bad civilians? When I've killed three million bad civilians? According to a warsimulation by the Pentagon in 1953 the entire area of Russia would've been reduced to ruins with 60 million casualties. All bad Russians. 60 million bad guys. By how many million ''bad'' casualties do I stop being a knight of justice? Isn't that the question those knights must ask themselves? If there's no-one left, and I remain as the only just one,

    Then I'm God.
    Quote Originally Posted by Louis Napoleon III, Des Idees Napoleoniennes
    Governments have been established to aid society to overcome the obstacles which impede its march. Their forms have been varied according to the problems they have been called to cure, and according to character of the people they have ruled over. Their task never has been, and never will be easy, because the two contrary elements, of which our existence and the nature of society is composed, demand the employment of different means. In view of our divine essence, we need only liberty and work; in view of our mortal nature, we need for our direction a guide and a support. A government is not then, as a distinguished economist has said, a necessary ulcer; it is rather the beneficent motive power of all social organisation.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfgang Held
    I walked into those baracks [of Buchenwald concentrationcamp], in which there were people on the three-layered bunkbeds. But only their eyes were alive. Emaciated, skinny figures, nothing more but skin and bones. One thinks that they are dead, because they did not move. Only the eyes. I started to cry. And then one of the prisoners came, stood by me for a while, put a hand on my shoulder and said to me, something that I will never forget: ''Tränen sind denn nicht genug, mein Junge,
    Tränen sind denn nicht genug.''

    Jajem ssoref is m'n korew
    E goochem mit e wenk, e nar mit e shtomp
    Wer niks is, hot kawsones

  10. #10
    B5C's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Cuba tries 'Socialism lite'

    Look, most "Communist" stats are turning much more capitalist. Hell Vietnam is more capitalist than it was 30 years ago. The only PURE communist state is North Korea and what a workers paradise is that place.

    “Nothing could be more dangerous to the existence of this Republic than to introduce religion into politics”

  11. #11

    Default Re: Cuba tries 'Socialism lite'

    Quote Originally Posted by B5C View Post
    Look, most "Communist" stats are turning much more capitalist. Hell Vietnam is more capitalist than it was 30 years ago. The only PURE communist state is North Korea and what a workers paradise is that place.
    I wouldn't say NK is a pure communist state, considering its a dictatorship an'all.

  12. #12
    B5C's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Cuba tries 'Socialism lite'

    Quote Originally Posted by I Heart Romans View Post
    I wouldn't say NK is a pure communist state, considering its a dictatorship an'all.
    Some said that Cuba was a pure communist state even though Castro was the dictator.

    “Nothing could be more dangerous to the existence of this Republic than to introduce religion into politics”

  13. #13

    Default Re: Cuba tries 'Socialism lite'

    Quote Originally Posted by B5C View Post
    Some said that Cuba was a pure communist state even though Castro was the dictator.
    I see your line of thought now, I thought you was referring to a perfect communist state, not a 'nearest to perfect communist state'.

    Cuba seems to have done very well considering, best literacy rate in the world. Do they still have labour camps for homosexuals though?

    Hmm...maybe some socialism lite is needed...

  14. #14
    reavertm's Avatar Decanus
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    Default Re: Cuba tries 'Socialism lite'

    "Communism is the very definition of failure."
    - Liberty Prime

  15. #15

    Default Re: Cuba tries 'Socialism lite'

    Quote Originally Posted by B5C View Post
    Some said that Cuba was a pure communist state even though Castro was the dictator.
    They're wrong. 'Pure' communism isn't even supposed to have states.

  16. #16
    No, that isn't a banana
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    Default Re: Cuba tries 'Socialism lite'

    Quote Originally Posted by B5C View Post
    Some said that Cuba was a pure communist state even though Castro was the dictator.
    I don't understand the criticism levied against Cuba's political/social system. It's as if you do it to justify holding on to the belief that the "American way" is better...

    Overcompensation anyone?

    Cuba has made out alright - considering what the current state had (and has) to work with. They were (and still are) victims of American capitalism. For a country that's been treated like dirt for the last 50 years, I'd say Cuba has accomplished quite a few remarkable things.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Cuba tries 'Socialism lite'

    Quote Originally Posted by B5C View Post
    Look, most "Communist" stats are turning much more capitalist. Hell Vietnam is more capitalist than it was 30 years ago. The only PURE communist state is North Korea and what a workers paradise is that place.
    North Kora is closer to a paternal autocracy and feudal state than it is communist, but whatever.
    Cuba can't wuss out now, go for broke i say!

  18. #18
    B-DizL's Avatar TGW Lead Modeller
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    Default Re: Cuba tries 'Socialism lite'

    Wasnt Cubas economy and the worlds economy for that matter ruined by the runaway capitalism in the first place??

  19. #19
    Justice and Mercy's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Cuba tries 'Socialism lite'

    Quote Originally Posted by BDIZZLE356 View Post
    Wasnt Cubas economy and the worlds economy for that matter ruined by the runaway capitalism in the first place??
    Nope.
    The powers delegated by the proposed Constitution to the federal government are few and defined. Those which are to remain in the State governments are numerous and indefinite. The former will be exercised principally on external objects, as war, peace, negotiation, and foreign commerce; with which last the power of taxation will, for the most part, be connected. The powers reserved to the several States will extend to all the objects which, in the ordinary course of affairs, concern the lives, liberties, and properties of the people, and the internal order, improvement, and prosperity of the State. - James Madison

  20. #20

    Default Re: Cuba tries 'Socialism lite'

    Quote Originally Posted by Justice and Mercy View Post
    Nope.

    gee so all the greedy incompetent banks collapsing and holding nations to ransom till they got bailouts must have been my imagination then.

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