First Age

[Isildor]

Do you know if there is any submod or mod about the first age?
Why is there nobody working on a first age mod for TATW?

I mean there is a submod about the Last Alliance and one about the Angmar, but nobody wants to make a submod about the first age. Isn't there any interest in this or why is nobody working on this?

[Elphir of Dol Amroth]

Do you know if there is any submod or mod about the first age?

No there isn't I'm afraid.

Why is there nobody working on a first age mod for TATW?

Because it's a lot of work to make such a mod. And quite complicated as well with things like Dragons, Balrogs, Eagles, Valar, Maiar, etc. You probably also need to script a lot of stuff to have a lore accurated mod.

I mean there is a submod about the Last Alliance and one about the Angmar

Those are far easier to make, in the most part you can just take units of TATW, with a First Age mod you need to create a lot of units yourself or at least give the TATW units a reskin. You also can make use of the current map of TATW, with a First Age mod you need to create Beleriand from scratch.

But nobody wants to make a submod about the first age. Isn't there any interest in this or why is nobody working on this

There are quite some people who want to make such a mod, but most of them have failed already or just don't want to start such a project without the help of some skilled modders. There where some projects on this, but they have all failed.

[eskrogh]

well if they should make a first age mod.. they would need to start making, dragons, balrogs sauron and such you would stand a chance as good... there was a reason the elves were hiding in Gondolin and Doriath?.. + lack of information since there havent been written that much about first age.. as of third age

[Isildor]

Dragons, Balrogs, Eagles, Valar, Maiar

This can't be the problem.

Valar: Don't play a big role in Middleearth during the wars between Morgoth and the elves and there are alot of possible campaigns without Valar

Maiar: Gandalf was also a Maiar. Maiar are not very dificult to depict. And they also play not always a big role.

Dragons, Balrogs, Eagles: They all play also in the third age a role, but I like TATW even whitout them so a mod whitout them in the first age would also be cool enough.


I mean, a mod whithout all those creatures would be okay in my opnion. The first releases could be whithout special creatures, just with Elves, Orcs and human.


You could use even most of the Orc and elv soldiers and maby even the Easterlings. It isn't so much work like you say. Only the map would have to be totally new.

[Seleukos_I.]

This can't be the problem.

Valar: Don't play a big role in Middleearth during the wars between Morgoth and the elves and there are alot of possible campaigns without Valar

Maiar: Gandalf was also a Maiar. Maiar are not very dificult to depict. And they also play not always a big role.

Dragons, Balrogs, Eagles: They all play also in the third age a role, but I like TATW even whitout them so a mod whitout them in the first age would also be cool enough.


I mean, a mod whithout all those creatures would be okay in my opnion. The first releases could be whithout special creatures, just with Elves, Orcs and human.

Making such a mod without Balrogs and Dragons is impossible because they were so important back then.
They surely existed while the Third Age but only one.

[Point Blank]

First Age would be amazing, but it seems much more complex to mod than Third Age. I think calling Angband a mere Citadel wouldn't be doing it justice either

Would be cool to have Morgoth with his Iron Crown and the Silmarils, Grond etc ancillaries Maybe really a bit beyond what the M2TW engine is capable of.

[FriendoftheDork]

First Age would be amazing, but it seems much more complex to mod than Third Age. I think calling Angband a mere Citadel wouldn't be doing it justice either

Would be cool to have Morgoth with his Iron Crown and the Silmarils, Grond etc ancillaries Maybe really a bit beyond what the M2TW engine is capable of.

The first age is long, but one could focus on the Quenta Silmarillion, perhaps beginning with the Noldor settling in Beleriand. You would have the Sindar of Doriath, the first houses of men (IIRC). Melkor could be the new pope, or do away with that system altogether. The abundance of maiar and poweful entities would shift power more to high-tier units, although both elves and men are also alot more powerful by nature these days, if not so technologically advanced.

But PB let's perfect the RR/RC first, eh?

[Hallow]

The first age is long

Actually, the first age is the shortest of the 3 ages, only 500 years.

[Point Blank]

Yeah I guess if you restricted it to a certain timeframe within the age it could work. But you'd need a whole new group of fanatic team members.

[Beorn]

Yep. And to the current modding knwledge, a 1st Age mod isn't possible....

[Vhaelor]

Not sure if anyone's mentioned this but

The fact of the matter is the lore of the First Age. While the First age is perhaps the age where most *important* events happen, but if you look at them - they're only vaguely described and it's hard to make a good true-to-the-lore-mod without bringing in your own fantasy to fill some holes in the plot - or to make it feasible in a M2TW engine, the same problem occurs in the Second Age, especially before the war of the last alliance, and even during the war of the last alliance - the story is thin (although very good)

Oh well, i'm just hoping Beorn's War of Arnor-mod will be released, always wanted to play in that era

[Isildor]

Well I think the units should be not really a problem. You could easyly use the units of TATW:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Elves:
Hithlum: High elven unit roster + some new riders
Gondolin: High elven unit roster
Doriath: Silvian elven roster
Nargothrond: Mix between Silvian and High elven unit roster

Dwarves:
Dwarves: Same unit roster

Human:
Elven friends: New Eriador units + some new one
Easterlings: Rhun unit roster

Orcs:
Morgoth: Mordor unit roster

[OfficerJohn]

Well I think the units should be not really a problem. You could easyly use the units of TATW:

Orcs:
Morgoth: Mordor unit roster

You gotta remove all the red Eyes and such...

[Isildor]

@Eol_Nauglamir
Well in the north Angband has of course to be on the map.

First Age mod could be really great! I for one really want this to happen but there isnt enough information to make it complete, for instance there arent a lot of settlements that are known in the first age to make a big map full with a lot of regions.

In TATW ther weren't enough regions either. (Orc encampment for example)

You can name regions and settlement after places, mountains, river, ... (e.g. Riverrun)

For example:

In Doriath were no cities at all. The elves lived in the forest. But looking at the map alot of possible names can be seen:



Amon Obel, Hirilorn, Menegroth, caras Neldoreth, caras Nivrim, caras Dimbar, ... (caras is a settlement whitout wall (I just loo checked this in a dictornary))

[Outlawstar15a2]

Well I think the units should be not really a problem. You could easyly use the units of TATW

Umm no dude, he can't. King Kong already said he will not give the go ahead for any sub mods that makes use of the units from TATW. So if he is gonna do the mod he needs to do his own units. Also I don't think that you could use third age units in either of the first or second ages. Although technology advances painfully slow in Middle Earth it changed enough that the third age units would be out of place in most cases. The Elves actually regressed technologically they like the Eldar from WH40K have the best stuff but lack the ability to make it anew so when it gets lost or destroyed their is no replacing it.

[Evan MF]

Umm no dude, he can't. King Kong already said he will not give the go ahead for any sub mods that makes use of the units from TATW. So if he is gonna do the mod he needs to do his own units. Also I don't think that you could use third age units in either of the first or second ages. Although technology advances painfully slow in Middle Earth it changed enough that the third age units would be out of place in most cases. The Elves actually regressed technologically they like the Eldar from WH40K have the best stuff but lack the ability to make it anew so when it gets lost or destroyed their is no replacing it.

You are so sure he can't aren't you but he an do what he wants with KK's units, because KK can't retain copyright on already copyrighted concepts. BUT that doesn't mean I suppotrt anyone using his units, it would be unfair.

[Seleukos_I.]

No he can't. Compare this thread: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=261195

[Eöl]

I thought once about a first age mod.
Here is a little bit of info I gathered back then.

It is the year 472 of the first age. Beleriand is for more than 400 years in a state of war. Morgoth, the dark enemy has been destroying the lands for years and his servants enslaving and killing the people who lived in it. First the enemies of Morgoth could defend themselves. In the Dagor Aglareb Morgoth was driven back in his fort, called Angband. Then after 400 years of relatively peace it changed. Morgoth had been building up an army for centuries and the inhabitants of beleriand wouldn’t see the omens. Then in the battle of the sudden flame Morgoth surprised his enemies and killed many. He gained many regions and burnt the lands. The oppressed countries knew it couldn’t go on much longer this way and formed a powerfull alliance. In 468 the Union of Maedhros was formed. Elves, men and dwarves cooperated for the first time in history in a single war. In 472, 22 years after the great loss, they marched to the north, to war. Even Gondolin, a hidden kingdom of elves showed themselves and sent a army of 10.000 heavily armored elves. Also Easterlings sent an army, though their intentions may be unpredicted and could change the futere of them all.

The Union of Maedhros <TUOM>
A third age total war submod


I have made some ideas for all facitons. This is from one of them:
The first name is the new one and the second is where I want to make it from.

Elves of Falas:
•Guard of Cirdán; [Silvan heavy spearmen]
•Elves of birchwood, sneaky, (2) sword(s), shield on back, cap [Hasharii], AOR=Arvernien
•Soldiers of Falas [Light Elven infantery]
• Archers of Cirdán [Sindar archers]
•Mounted Guards of Cirdán [Elven nobles]
•Archers of Falas [Elven archers]
•Spearmen of Falas [Silvan light spearmen]

Most of the cities are lore wise. Though some are just encampements.

[Skeleton Of The West]

First Age mod could be really great! I for one really want this to happen but there isnt enough information to make it complete, for instance there arent a lot of settlements that are known in the first age to make a big map full with a lot of regions.

[Elphir of Dol Amroth]

I mean, a mod whithout all those creatures would be okay in my opnion. The first releases could be whithout special creatures, just with Elves, Orcs and human.

For a first release that will do, but in later releases they should definately add those other creatures since some of them played quite a big role in the First Age.

It isn't so much work like you say. Only the map would have to be totally new.

But you also have to make various scripts, a lot of coding, balancing, some reskinning and some new units, 2d-art, intro movies, building and unit cards, lore research and descriptions.

The first age is long, but one could focus on the Quenta Silmarillion, perhaps beginning with the Noldor settling in Beleriand.

Or maybe beginning a few years before the Battle of the Sudden Flame, than you would still have allmost all the Elven, Dwarven and Men realms while you would also have a very strong Morgoth faction ready to strike. A few turns later you could get emergent factions if that's possible, like the Land of the Sword and Bow, Sauron in Minas Tirith and Dorthonion and maybe the Easterlings as a horde faction just a little to the East of the Ered Luin.

Melkor could be the new pope, or do away with that system altogether.

The problem with Melkor as a pope is that he has very little factions to join him in the crusade or give orders to. For example, if Melkor is his own faction (just like Sauron in TATW) you would have only Morgoth's Legions, Sauron in Minas Tirith and the Easterlings of Ulfang to command. Later in game you maybe can make use of Glaurung as a sort of a faction of his own with some Orc legions, but this might be a bit to much uncorrect according to lore. For the good factions it's also impossible to select a pope, since there wasn't really a leader among them, they were to devided to have a central leader. So for them jihads work best, it's also pretty lore accurate with things like the Union of Meadhros.

While the First age is perhaps the age where most *important* events happen, but if you look at them - they're only vaguely described

That's true and another problem is that because J.J.R. Tolkien never finished the Silmarillion there are so many different versions of his stories. So sometimes it's hard to pick out the correct one. On the other hand, this is Total War, so things will not alwasy go lore accurated anyways when playing your campaign.

Eol_Nauglamir and Isildor, about the Beleriand maps you both posted, they look good, but I guess it needs to be expanded a bit to the North to include Angbad.

Edit: I see Isildor already pointed this out.

for instance there arent a lot of settlements that are known in the first age to make a big map full with a lot of regions.

That is true, on the other hand we do know the names of a lot of regions, so at least the regions would be lore accurate. But look for instance at your expanded map of TATW or just at regular TATW, they also have a lot of settlement names that aren't fully correct according to lore.

Than about the units of TATW we could use:

- Gondor: I guess we could use the more militia like units for the Edain, the more heavier armoured units probably don't suit the First Age inhabitans well.
- Rohan: With some reskinning and removing some symbols, like the horse symbols for example, they could be used for the House of Hador.
- Dale: Could be used for the House of Hador as well and maybe for the House of Beor also.
- Eriador: Could be used for all the Edain and also for the House of Bor and House of Ulfang
- Dwarves: You probably don't even have to reskin them to let them fit with the Firebeards, Broadbeams and with the Petty Dwarves.
- High Elves: Could be used for all Elven factions with the exception of the Nandor of Ossiriand. Even the more heavier armoured units of Doriath, the Sindar of Mithrim, the Sons of Finarfin and of the Falas could be created from the High Elves units.
- Silvan Elves: Could be used for the Nandor of Ossiriand, some Avari Elves, Doriath, the Falas, Sindar of Mithrim and possible also for some of the troops of Nargothrond, Minas Tirith and Dorthonion.
- Isengard: The Uruk-hai can't be used, however the Orcs and Wargs would fit Morgoth's Legions and Sauron on Minas Tirith. Also the Dunlendings would suit the forces of Brethil and maybe also the Easterlings and some of the House of Beor.
- Orcs of the Misty Mountains: Maybe with some reskinning they would fit Morgoth's Legions and Sauron on Minas Tirith. The Wargs and Trolls could be used as well of course.
- Mordor: Orcs and Trolls could be used for Sauron on Minas Tirith and Morgoth's Legions.
- Harad: This faction seems unlikely to have much usefull units.
- Rhun: Although they are also Easterlings, they are in my opinion to heavily armoured to match with the Easterlings of Beleriand. I can hardly imagine the Folk of Ulfang and the Folk of Bor to look like the "Golden Horde" like units of Rhun. Maybe some of the lighter armoured units could be used though.