Yeomen/Retinue Longbows

[Sokar Rostau]

I remember seeing somewhere that KK had removed the AP from the Longbows to prevent them from being the all-powerful killing machines they had been. I'm noticing now that they appear to have been changed again in 6.2.

I am able to set up a line of Longbows that can use their superior range to severely weaken the enemy while they advance until they get close and then move my infantry in front and put the Longbows behind where they are usually still firing at the end of the battle. In other words, Longbows are in it for the long haul.

Yeomen and Retinue, on the other hand, don't seem to be of much use after the infantry engage because they're usually out of arrows, what's worse is that they will waste the majority of their arrows on the enemy missile troops which come into range first and stay in range the longest leaving them with little ammo for the still advancing infantry.

Time and time again I have fielded armies of mixed Yeomen and plain Longbows and end up using the Yeomen to flank and charge the enemy while they fight my infantry and the Longbows still have half their arrows left to cover the other flank. The one time I have used Retinue in combat (only just got them) they seemed to be out of arrows before the retinue who were, of course, out of arrows before the single remaining Longbow unit in that army.

Do they have less ammo (possibly doing more damage?)? Increased RoF? What's the deal? I'm wondering if they are still going to be useful as the spine of an English army if they're basically going to be out of ammo and standing around after the first two minutes of any battle.

[Tacitursa]

There more effective ways to use your longbowmen. They cannot shoot continuously like machineguns.

Turning off fire at will as soon as possible is a must and set your archers into groups. then focus fire all of them at certain groups you wish to weaken such as Pikes/Spears in burst volleys. Dont try and kill the entire unit just reduce it alot. The smaller a unit gets the more arrows are wasted. I generally fire 6-7 volleys at each spear units depending on how many die. You should aim for around 50% death of a unit and then move on to the next. Stop firing once youve killed enough units.

This almost always allows your cavalry to finish off the spear unit in a single charge without any losses. If you get it down to a tee you can completely remove all the AI's spears and archers very quickly. Then you can reposition all of your archers on a flank supported by spears and focus fire into the back of the AI infantry line with the occasional flame arrow volley for morale damage.

Never leave fire at will enabled and dont shoot heavy infrantry/cavalry or similar targets its a waste of arrows. Your spears will deal with cavalry and your cavalry will deal with infrantry.

Use your archers to focus fire spears/pikes/generals only. Once thats done enable flame arrows and support your cavalry on the flanks making the infantry line rout.

[Goofy]

Never leave fire at will enabled and dont shoot heavy infrantry/cavalry or similar targets its a waste of arrows. Your spears will deal with cavalry and your cavalry will deal with infrantry.

IMO spears can't very effectively take down enemy cavalry, at least when you are using defending formation as I do in 70% of battles. Cavalry avoids your spearmen and attacks your archers from the rear.
And such troops like Retinue Longbowmen can quite effectively shoot even heavy cavalry (not so likely heavy infantry) due to their elite bodkin arrows and high missile attack stat.

Otherwise it was worth a rep.

[meese]

As the Turks, to counter the rear-cavalry charge I place stakes up front with Janissary heavy infantry (in this case probably the King's Men as I think they're called, previously dismounted English Knights) and put the spears behind/to the side. Of course, when available, I use Qapakulu which are excellent cavalry killers with high armour (for a Muslim faction) and armour piercing maces.

[Tacitursa]

Cavalry avoids your spearmen and attacks your archers from the rear.

That's impossible if you position your units right. The only possible way to reach my archers is to go through spears and stakes.

If cavalry avoid your spears just micromanage. Most people just chase the cavalry with the spears and let there archers stand there as bait i dont do that. Move your archers in the oposite direction from your spears and your spears will always remain inbetween your archers and the cavalry. The AI is dumb and they dont know how to deal with it so they just end in charging anything or running away.

There's no need to move all your archers either its easy to tell which unit is being charged by the AI just simply move that unit out of the way and replace it with spears.

And unless the AI teleports behind you with special powers you always have more than enough time to reposition and counter flanking cavalry

Sometimes if i have enough archers i make a square box out of stakes then posisition all my archers inside it once battle has started. Or create Stake bunkers where only the front and sides of the archers are staked with a unit of pikes or spears defending the rear

[Goofy]

Sorry, I forgot that we were talking about Retinue Longbowmen who can field stakes... but that's the way it is with normal archers. This is how I usually place my troops.
Green - Infantry
Red - Spearmen/pikemen
Blue - Archers
Yellow - Artillery
Black - Cavalry
Although nowadays I usually place my archers to a M-formation. And I'll test cavalry in the front soon. But that's the basic.

[Kawee]

What happens when they charge your spearmen line with heavy infantry, which in the long run will beat your spearmen, and your archers incapable of firing at them due to friendly fire. And then they charge their heavy cavalry into your infantry line?

You will probably still win, but I suspect you might suffer heavy casualties?

[Tacitursa]

That never happens. My spearmen are placed behind my Heavy infantry line next to my archers.

For the AI heavy infantry to charge my spearmen they would have to flank around my front line. And simply put my cavalry will crush they all before they get anywhere near my spears.

Uploaded pics of my Box tactic. 10 Retinue longbowmen vs 7 French Lancers. As anyone should agree the lancers should dominate that battle in seconds.

[boss_tay]

That never happens. My spearmen are placed behind my Heavy infantry line next to my archers.

For the AI heavy infantry to charge my spearmen they would have to flank around my front line. And simply put my cavalry will crush they all before they get anywhere near my spears.

Uploaded pics of my Box tactic. 10 Retinue longbowmen vs 7 French Lancers. As anyone should agree the lancers should dominate that battle in seconds.

Wow, the lancers is kind of stupid in your case.
I think they should "WALK" into the steak area, not charge, then start slaughtering !!!
--> The lancer will win for sure.

When I play, the AI calvary hardly charge into my steak or spear. They would circle around and attack my General, Calvary and Infantry line from behind.

[meese]

Walking stops the stakes? :o

[Tacitursa]

Walking stops the stakes? :o

Correct , But AI never walk through them so its completely void.

When I play, the AI calvary hardly charge into my steak or spear. They would circle around and attack my General, Calvary and Infantry line from behind.

And you just let that happen i assume? You dont reposition your spears?

Try this. Create a custom battle with 2 sets of cavalry vs 2 spearmen and 2 archers. Keep your archers infront of your spearmen at all times.

When the AI charge your archers , Rush them behind your spears and rush your spears foward. If the cavalry split up and attack from 2 sides just rush all your archers into the middle and rush your spears on the outside.

Seriously if AI cavalry are flanking you and attacking there priority targets you should start using the above tactic.

[boss_tay]

Correct , But AI never walk through them so its completely void.

And you just let that happen i assume? You dont reposition your spears?

Try this. Create a custom battle with 2 sets of cavalry vs 2 spearmen and 2 archers. Keep your archers infront of your spearmen at all times.

When the AI charge your archers , Rush them behind your spears and rush your spears foward. If the cavalry split up and attack from 2 sides just rush all your archers into the middle and rush your spears on the outside.

Seriously if AI cavalry are flanking you and attacking there priority targets you should start using the above tactic.

No, that's not what I meant.
The AI calvaries tend to make big circle around my 2 flanks, then attacking my calvaries and move onwards.
When I play as Denmark on vh/vh, the AI is the Fatimid, vastly superior calvary with 6-8 Royal Mamluks (incredible 21 armor !!!). They don't field any archers, just Gulam infantry all the way and Royal Mamluks

I still manage to win most of the battle, but with massive casualty. I put 2 calvaries on each flank to halt the Mamluks from charging from behind, then rush my spearman in, hopefully to decimate the mamluks or kill their General before my outnumbered infantry line is supressed and routed by the Fatimid's Gulam and other heavy infantry.

[Tacitursa]

Bit of an extreme example why are you fighting Fatimids in field battles as denmark? Fighting very strong cavalry factions in the field as denmark is a bad tactic

Just bring siege equipment and and take there castles/cities and defend and there cavalry become completely useless. Join a crusade and hire loads of crusader spear units they are very effective.

If your get into a situation where you must might in the field just position your army in a corner or up on a high ridge where calavry cannot flank you

[boss_tay]

Well, I have to fight the Fatimids because it's a already concluded campaign. Only I (Denmark), Fatimids and the Pope left. I controlled all Europe (including British, Scandinavia, Iberia, some profitable Russian regions), Pope had Italy (he's my ally) and Fatimid took everything else. Both I and Fatimids controlled over 70 regions, but they achieved the Victory condition before me since they hold Jerusalem.

Back on the Longbowman topic: should we put stakes in front of our line? This will also prevent our calvaries from circling and charging the enemy engaged infantry line from behind.

[ferretboy]

Give them more arrows increase there power if you wish

[arcanek]

I got a quick question. When archers have nothing before them they fire directly at the enemy; otherwise they fire in an arch over troops inbetween. Is there any difference in killing power?

[Tacitursa]

I got a quick question. When archers have nothing before them they fire directly at the enemy; otherwise they fire in an arch over troops inbetween. Is there any difference in killing power?

I dont think the damage increases(not positive on that) But im 99% sure accuracy increases so you do get extra killing power.

[Sokar Rostau]

This talk of tactics is interesting but doesn't really answer my questions, does it?

I use stakes, in one form or another, in most battles and whether they hinder your cavalry is up to how much attention you pay to what is going on (and the landscape). Unless you're some sort of masochist you will have your archers on Skirmish, or will move them out of the way when the enemy gets close. Once the enemy gets close enough send your infantry forward in front of the stakes and put the archers on the former infantry line, this allows you to charge your cavalry into the enemy rear without fear of your own stakes. If you have more than 6 units of archers (usually the maximum default single line in the green point of your deployment area) you can use the extra to set up extra stakes on the flanks of where the archers will end up after moving to protect them from flanking cavalry.

This is my main gripe with the Yeomen/Retinue Longbows - in most battles they spend most of their time as light infantry and in major battles that can be a long time. I attacked a full stack from Norway the other night only to find that another stack and a half were hiding in the forest. Towards the end of the battle I had three Mailed Knights, 38 Longbowmen, 16 Yeomen Longbows in two units and 6 Dismounted Feudal Knights fighting against five enemy units all with about 50% strength. After a very long fight, in which most of my army was routed/destroyed, I finally managed to pull off a Heroic Victory because my Longbows had ammunition left to shoot fire into the backs of the enemy as they were chopping up the Yeomen and DFKs. The only reason I was successful was because I was lucky enough to attack the strongest stack and the other two consisted of cavalry, light infantry and militia. My six units of Yeomen spent the vast majority of the battle in melee for lack of arrows while the two Longbows were happily sniping away - I ended up with only ~50 Yeomen, in four units, and ~80 Longbows after the battle.

[PerXX]

Both Yeomen and Longbowmen have exactly 30 arrors per soldier.
Yeomen have a slighly better arrow, and a slightly longer range, along with better melee attacks+armor.
Both are classified as missile units, rather than skirmishers, which usually is the main difference between attack speed.

[meese]

I tested it myself and all three (Yeoman, Retinue and normal longbowmen) ran otu at the same time.