Is Save-And-Reload a Cheat?

[Green Warrior]

I'm still something of an amateur TW player, meaning I've played for years but not intensely and not with the skill and expertise that many others have attained (I never play online because I would just get destroyed). However, I have never used cheats in any of my TW games -- ever.

Except . . . I often save just before performing an action and then reload if I get an undesirable outcome. I do this mostly with merchant acquisitions but also with moving spies into a settlement and (less often) before a battle. Oh, and with SS I always save just before ending my turn. That way if I get a jihad or crusade called against me I can simply reload and end my turn again -- the jihad or crusade is almost never called after that reload.

My question: do you consider save-and-reload a cheat? Does anyone not save-and-reload?

[Sokar Rostau]

End of turn saving isn't really a cheat because it's built into the game - the game is saved at the end of every turn by default (after all factions have taken their turns... if something happens while their taking their turns you have to live with it).

Saving before every action is a different matter, and I imagine a real resource hog - your saved game folder must be massive.

I tend to save at two points. The first is "when I remember" because I frequently discover that I've been playing for hours without saving. The second is important events like doing something risky with my best Spy/Assassin/Merchants or doing something that may have undesirable consequences within the next few turns. Examples of this last may be defying the Pope and hoping I'm not going to lose all my alliances and have a Crusade called on me, or starting a war with a faction that may result in a similar exodus of allies. This is all just a contingency for disaster as I don't find myself reloading those saves often at all.

[PerXX]

Technicly, it's a cheat. But seeing as this is a Singleplayer game, do whatever you want to maximize your fun. If that includes reloading, or editing your archers to fire rockets, or whatever then just do that. All that matters is having fun doing it.

[Green Warrior]

Sokar, I need to clarify a couple of points.

First, I do not rely on the Autosave for the very reason you stated -- reloading Autosave will not change what the AI has done that turn. I save BEFORE turn end because I want to reverse or un-do something the AI has done after I hurt the end turn button.

Second, I don't have a massive save game file because I simply save over games repeatedly. For each new campaign game I allow myself six save game "slots," so to speak. I simply overwrite slot number 3 with 4, etc. The next save after slot 6 takes me back to slot 2 (I never overwrite a game's slot 1, for some weird, half-understood, semi-superstitious reason).

So is save-and-reload a cheat?

[kingsword]

Well, it's not technically cheat as you do not make the dice roll the number you want, but you get a re-roll if the dice somehow totally screws you over.

I'm basing this thought on not just this game but there are tons of games out there that you cannot progress without loading a previous save. You can always stick to your progress unless it's totally fatal of course.

[KittySN]

Yes, that's cheating. You're forcing an outcome in your favor. Might as well open the console.

[Lysimachus]

Yes. First learn how to play battles without pausing, then learn how to accept any defeats on the strategy map, then learn not to save before important events and just save after x period of time. Trust me, it makes the game so much more enjoyable

[gracul]

Save and reload is not a cheat, it is a matter of taste. I really don't like loosing sieges because my rams got burned, and i do like to replay a battle sometimes even 3-4 times if i know that i have a chance of winning it. Heroic victories sound nice...

BTW. vs AI, having a brain is also cheating... only zombie can play mtw

[King Siegfried]

Save and reload is not a cheat, it is a matter of taste. I really don't like loosing sieges because my rams got burned, and i do like to replay a battle sometimes even 3-4 times if i know that i have a chance of winning it. Heroic victories sound nice...

I'll tell you something, I can NEVER set the computer's siege engines on fire, but they always manage to have an inferno going up in front of THEIR gates... Sieges are one instance that I always save before due to these very events. If I burned enemy siege equipment with peasant archers as often as the computer did, I wouldn't save. But the computer cheats. Either that, or I have the worst luck of any player alive.

In regards to saving and reloading in general, I only reserve it for cases where the computer has clearly cheated to put me in a bind. If the computer spawns a full-stack from a settlement previously empty on a "bankrupt" purse, then I'll save-and-reload before they attack a settlement of mine. I can't tell you how annoying it is to fight the same army several times because the computer keeps spawning 'em, especially in the same spot. Now, I don't mind the game being difficult. Once waged a war against Denmark where I flat lost some battles/settlements, and in one game, my heir (also my best general!) was killed in a siege against Krakow, but I rolled with it. I really like to have a degree of role-playing when I play M2TW, so it was fun to then launch a full-scale blitz led by the king, because he was so angry that his son was KIA.

I view S&R as a tool. If it's abused too much (failure rates on agents are part of the game!), then it's cheating. Otherwise, I think it's quite acceptable.

[Germanicu5]

I used all sorts of exploits during battles, particularly sieges - that prompted me to writing my own AI. You'll never know where cheating takes you .

Regards

P.S. No way I'm going to stop using mangonel for siege defence, it's too much fun.

[Caesar Clivus]

I consider it cheating if I save and reload. But that is because that is how I play. As someone already said, it's a singleplayer game and you can play it how you want. But be aware that a lot of people get narky when you use such tactics and then boast about your achievements on the forums

Personally I dont mind it when things go wrong as it forces me to fix it or change my strategy. Spices things up a little. Otherwise the campaign gets very same old same old very quickly. I remember one time I was playing Rome:Total Realism as the Romans. I had landed an army in Greece and had fought a few battles. The fighting had taken it's toll so I raised a second army in Italy and put them in a fleet to get them to Greece ASAP. But before they could make it to land, a freak storm hit and sunk the fleet and my entire full stack army. Now instead of reloading, I kept playing. What was left of my army in Greece had to fight some very tough and hairy battles before I could reinforce them. It was hard but damn was it fun

[caralampio]

I don't specifically save prior to risky events, but I do return to a previous save (probably the autosave)when something horrible happens (like my favorite general gets killed by a lucky ballista shot in a battle that was otherwise a sure win). I don't have anyone looking over my shoulder to prevent me...

[Green Warrior]

a freak storm hit and sunk the fleet and my entire full stack army. Now instead of reloading, I kept playing. What was left of my army in Greece had to fight some very tough and hairy battles before I could reinforce them. It was hard but damn was it fun

Clivus, excellent point! That is precisely the sort of experience one gets from time to time while playing TW -- and those experiences are what make TW so rewarding and enjoyable. Now if only I could get myself to resist the temptation to use the save-and-reload technique . . . I might get a few more of those edge-of-my-seat experiences a little more often.

[campbela]

I save prior to the end of each turn because it is a computer game and computer games stuff up/break. Rarely reload unless the AI does something really stupid that p's me off. Like a few high rank spies with 95% chance of success all dying, or being lazy and auto-resolving a battle that is in my favour and getting crushing defeat. I reload and fight the battle manually, send the spies to do something else.

If I make a stupid mistake I live with it.

[TheBromgrev]

I always save before I hit the end turn button. That's mostly because I sometimes forget about armies/agents I moved somewhere and don't want to waste their turn. That mostly happens with generals placing watch towers. I also save before diplomatic exchanges, because sometimes you need to do things incrementally before getting the desired results. An example is securing trade rights and an alliance. Sometimes you can simply trade the two, other times you need trade rights first.

[Anatorax]

I save before battles and at the end of the turn. Before battles - I love to rush rebels in the very Eastern Europe at the start and that means I need to engage into battles (more likely sieges) with balance like 1:3 (rarely), 1:2 (sometimes), 3:2 (always) and if my army gets destroyed - the whole side of the kingdom is left without garrisones (reinforcements come in 5 turns due to distances). Later on I reload less, but still correct my mistakes in the battle. And I check the new traits of my royal family - I am picky as heck regarding that.

[Massive_attack]

Well... i dont know. Medieval 2 has always been a very personal game, to me, its purpose is to let the player enjoy the game as he or she pleases, so calling something or other a cheat is rather subjective, i suppose, since some people would, whilst others might think it a part of the experience.

I try to be impartial in these kinds of threads, however...

My personal experience with this leads me to consider it a cheat. IMO, this is worse than add_money, and is almost as bad as auto_win. Simply put, reloading a turn (unless you saved and quit, or something) is totally immersion breaking, not to mention just plain cheap. I mean, part of the fun of the game for me is experiencing the unexpected, Its like reading a book that writes itself, the entire point of the thing is that seamless story and player experience. When a great hero of my empire falls, or a city is lost in a siege, i dont go "Ah well, that sucks, i bet if i just reloaded and tried this tactic i could totally change that outcome !" For me, its a big deal, like "woah, i cant believe that just happened ! I gotta do something !" If i knew that every time i erred, i could just reload and try again, the entire game would become tantamount to pointless.

Again, just my 2cents.

[meese]

On the other side of the coin, I play often while doing something else so during these play periods, I really don't mind not feeling immersed in the overall campaign. I typically treat each battle in its singularity rather than in the overall scheme of the campaign.

That said, I do often find myself thinking, "Ah...what a terrible battle outcome...let's leave it and see how I go" which often comes with rewards. It's really quite satisfying holding off four crusader armies with a half depleted army of janissaries after elephants ran amok.

But yeah, I don't mind "cheating". I love using mangonels and cannons in defensive siege battles - it's just hilarious. Same with naffatuns. Those units almost always kill at least a hundred each, I think one unit of naffatun once racked up 400 for me. And i had three of them. Sure, it makes things unbelievably easy, but I don't always play to be challenged.

[czeresniak]

I've always reload game when one of my armies get rebel or plauge hit city or castle, which need 10 people more to advance to next level (I've got the feeling that algorithm causing plagues is not randomized but evil, plague always hit settlements with my best governor or full stack inside)

[ggzz]

well,if that does confound you, then yes~~otherwise it is okay